Body Measurements, Wood

[Terry, NJ]

I am not an artist! I am a technician! I need a print, or at least some dimensions for my 30 Town Sedan (4dr). I bought my top wood and sills/rails from one of the two manufacturers. (It doesn't matter which one) But nary a drawing, schematic, or even a target list of numbers to shoot for. So what are the angles, widths, lengths, and Heights that the body should be when it's done? There's too much flex available in the kit (Top side rails for one) to just proceed and start screwing things together. Whyinhell don't these manufacturers give some advice with these kits Like finish dimensions? We certainly pay enough for them.
Terry

[Mike V. Florida]

Brent has pictures of Fordor wood (assembled) on his site.

http://www.model-a-ford.com/proj_11.shtml

He had others on his old site that maybe he will post here for you.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Terry, there is "instructions" up at the Bensen Library (Archives) where it likely has an Assembly drawing, --or two, --or three for your body. Actually, there is probably closer to about 50 drawings that would make up your complete infrastructure. When I usually buy a JPEG copy of a Model A drawing (blueprint), it takes two or three jpegs to make up a copy of the entire drawing. I was last up there in October and I think I paid $25.00 a piece for each picture, ...not drawing but picture. My bill on 6 or 7 fender blueprints was nearly $500.00.

I realize you are frustrated but the wood manufacturer is just like a paint manufacturer, or a tire manufacturer, or many other companies where they have the attitude that they are supplying a product that the end-consumer should be versed on how to use it first before purchasing their product. I also realize you feel you paid a lot of money for the "kit" but what you received is much cheaper than hiring it done. For us to cut the wood and do the installation will take between 200 - 250 hours. That does not include any sheetmetal prep, the raw wood, any fasteners, or misc. materials needed (i.e. glue, anti-squeak, etc.). In all true honesty, you picked one of the more difficult Model A bodies to restore. I will also say that you really do not need a print or outside measurements to assemble you body. Your cowl, the doors, and the rear section will determine where it needs to be attached to the sills. There is a lot of 'mock-assembly' that is necessary in fitting the wood. Probably will even need to re-make a few pieces to obtain a better fit. Again, I wish I could be of more help but this is just one of those tasks where it takes diligence and perceverance. Nothing we can do for you in a forum setting other than offer encouragement.

.

[Terry, NJ]

Thank you for your reply. There is alot of truth in what you say! Rather than crying and whining on this forum (Please understand, I'm 50% just venting!) I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm up to par. I bought the top and bottom wood and am trying replicate the doors and body wood. it was easy at first, all I had to do was duplicate each piece. I had the loan of a Bridgeport and everything worked out pretty well. Right now the body and cowl are separate, so matching the two is very difficult. However, I'm at a loss as to how to assemble the top wood. I'm also replacing the wood into the body and the angles of the sides look wrong. I am also using the left side as a model/template for the right side. Pictures don't give working fits
I also had the cowl sandblasted, but there's rust at the bottoms. On one side, the rust extends up most of the way as pits and holes. I no longer trust my welding, so my guy that's welding it (Patch panels) suggested a full cowl panel for that side. They make full P.P.s for every model but the 4drs. Everything I do seems to open a can of worms.
So I take notice that you construct the frame outside the body/shell, Then you prepare the body, then you marry the two. I'm fitting each wooden part into the body. I'm all alone and my only "Power' machine is a Case 580 Back hoe. So you can see my inadequadsies and problems.
Terry

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Terry, there is "instructions" up at the Bensen Library (Archives) where it likely has an Assembly drawing, --or two, --or three for your body. Actually, there is probably closer to about 50 drawings that would make up your complete infrastructure. When I usually buy a JPEG copy of a Model A drawing (blueprint), it takes two or three jpegs to make up a copy of the entire drawing. I was last up there in October and I think I paid $25.00 a piece for each picture, ...not drawing but picture. My bill on 6 or 7 fender blueprints was nearly $500.00.

I realize you are frustrated but the wood manufacturer is just like a paint manufacturer, or a tire manufacturer, or many other companies where they have the attitude that they are supplying a product that the end-consumer should be versed on how to use it first before purchasing their product. I also realize you feel you paid a lot of money for the "kit" but what you received is much cheaper than hiring it done. For us to cut the wood and do the installation will take between 200 - 250 hours. That does not include any sheetmetal prep, the raw wood, any fasteners, or misc. materials needed (i.e. glue, anti-squeak, etc.). In all true honesty, you picked one of the more difficult Model A bodies to restore. I will also say that you really do not need a print or outside measurements to assemble you body. Your cowl, the doors, and the rear section will determine where it needs to be attached to the sills. There is a lot of 'mock-assembly' that is necessary in fitting the wood. Probably will even need to re-make a few pieces to obtain a better fit. Again, I wish I could be of more help but this is just one of those tasks where it takes diligence and perceverance. Nothing we can do for you in a forum setting other than offer encouragement.

.

[Cider Mill]

Yikes, I have a 30 Murray that I am about to embark on replacing the top wood and most of the bottom wood. What am I getting myself into? My plan is to take the sheet metal off, then replace the bottom sill plates - one at a time. Then start on the top wood last. Does this sound like a good plan?

[Bill Goddard]

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Terry, I have just gone thruogh this with my 60A - the worst body to restore. Make sure the frame is straight and level. Then you have to start with the sheet metal. The metal has to fit together. The wood only fills the metal and provides structure. Start with the cowling and firewall. Attach the wood header using the metal work as a guide. The metal parts must go together. Make the wood fit. Then put in the windshield frame and be sure it fits. Then the door lock posts and finally the rear sheet metal quarter panel. Before locking anything down mount all the doors. As you are doing al this you will be mounting the upper door sills and the rest of the wood roof structure. you will have to play it by ear but remember - all the steel sheet metal must fit together - so there is only one way it can go. Make the wood fit under the steel. Good Luck Bill G

[Terry, NJ]

Cider Mill, Geeezz I don't know if I'm the one to ask. I bought the top wood and bottom wood and making the body wood. BTW Bot.wood doesn't include the rear seat riser. These are fairly easy to make so no big deal. If you haven't bought your kit yet, be prepared. I have a Briggs, so they may be different, but the top rail over the back window must be considered "Body Wood" Too. Mine is pretty solid so I'm leaving the original. I'm very reluctant to dissassemble the left side of the car until I've got the right side fitted. I'm using the left side as a pattern to work to. So I don't have both sills in place, only the right secured with a small sheetrock screw.
The body is on a sheet of plywood, on a dolly. The problems come in with finally assembly of the top wood. In my kit, the top rail is not a solid piece. There is an aluminum plate, about center, that is obviously there for adjustments. Since it is not rigid, where does it go? If I had some final dimensions to work from, this would be a lot easier.
Terry

[Terry, NJ]

Thanks Bill, Where's Shrewsbury?

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

Terry, I have just gone thruogh this with my 60A - the worst body to restore. Make sure the frame is straight and level. Then you have to start with the sheet metal. The metal has to fit together. The wood only fills the metal and provides structure. Start with the cowling and firewall. Attach the wood header using the metal work as a guide. The metal parts must go together. Make the wood fit. Then put in the windshield frame and be sure it fits. Then the door lock posts and finally the rear sheet metal quarter panel. Before locking anything down mount all the doors. As you are doing al this you will be mounting the upper door sills and the rest of the wood roof structure. you will have to play it by ear but remember - all the steel sheet metal must fit together - so there is only one way it can go. Make the wood fit under the steel. Good Luck Bill G

[Bill Goddard]

Terry, I'm 4mi north of pa/md border on rt83. I can see my house from the expressway. Bill G
P.S. If you are replacing the door wood you can change the clearance of the door sheet metal to the door posts by as much as 3/16 inch. I had to do it a couple of times

[Bill Goddard]

CiderMill, I had enough good wood to make a pattern of every piece. Some I had to make a couple of times because I miss-read the old wood and the pattern was bad but I got it all done. Some of the pieces are like making a fancy table leg with the curves and claw foot (gambrole?) using 3 D machining - bandsaw. I decided to make my own parts because I had the tools, and I heard the purchased parts still had work to do on them. (It may be hard to understand but my experience making numerous gunstocks was that I would rather start with a flat blank board and have something to hold in a vise than start with a precarved piece that needed wood removed all over but offered no good way to hold it.) Also the price of precarved pieces was a factor. I bought all my wood for the car for less than $500. I don't know if this helps but if you or Terry need help give me a call 717-880-6077. Bill G

[Cider Mill]

Both Sill Plates and rear cross piece came via UPS. At a quick glance, it looks like the main body sill plates have most of the holes too far towards the center line of the car by about 1 inch! The rear cross piece has vertical notches cut out about 3/8" off. Looks like the typical re-working will be coming my way.

I have post-pone the body wood work until after I get my chassis done. I want to build the body wood off of the completed metal frame.

Dan

[Terry, NJ]

Dan! Hold the drill! Don't make any holes until you line it up from the front bolt holes The ones that hold the cowl and the sills in place. I thought the same thing (Somebody fowled up the bolt holes) I retried it using the front (Cowl) holes and almost everything lined up. The two 5/16 bolt holes in the bumper brackets are the only ones giving me agita now They are somewhat adjustable.

You don't mean the fore and aft C-line, you mean the side to side C-line I think.
Terry

Originally Posted by Cider Mill

Both Sill Plates and rear cross piece came via UPS. At a quick glance, it looks like the main body sill plates have most of the holes too far towards the center line of the car by about 1 inch! The rear cross piece has vertical notches cut out about 3/8" off. Looks like the typical re-working will be coming my way.

I have post-pone the body wood work until after I get my chassis done. I want to build the body wood off of the completed metal frame.

Dan

[Terry, NJ]

I'm trying to stay away from a lot of "fitting" by using the most accurate duplication I can posibly do. I use a vernier and a Starrett 12" scale with both a geometric and simple square on it. Watch those angles! Check everything before cutting. Sides of pieces that look square, sometimes aren't with 1,2,3 degrees of angle being hard to notice. There's hardly a square cut on any piece in the car. If you don't have one already, I'd suggest you buy a belt sander for final sanding and fitting. Good luck!
Terry

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

Terry, I have just gone thruogh this with my 60A - the worst body to restore. Make sure the frame is straight and level. Then you have to start with the sheet metal. The metal has to fit together. The wood only fills the metal and provides structure. Start with the cowling and firewall. Attach the wood header using the metal work as a guide. The metal parts must go together. Make the wood fit. Then put in the windshield frame and be sure it fits. Then the door lock posts and finally the rear sheet metal quarter panel. Before locking anything down mount all the doors. As you are doing al this you will be mounting the upper door sills and the rest of the wood roof structure. you will have to play it by ear but remember - all the steel sheet metal must fit together - so there is only one way it can go. Make the wood fit under the steel. Good Luck Bill G

[1930artdeco]

Terry,

I will be following your post VERY carefully. I have the same car and my roof has a small tear in it-and I want to keep it that way. I DO NOT want to replace the top or any of the wood-it scares me. So ...ah....good luck and take lots and lots of pics and then post them.

Mike

[Glenn C.]

Just remember another couple of things....from experience....these wood reinforced body cars were assembled in the factory from the bottom up and from front to back. Seems logical, but I did not start out that way on my 60A. Dry fit everything Start out by usings wood screws one size smaller than required. During final fit you can then drill and install the correct size screws. Make sure you hang all the doors during dry-fit. Try to obtain equal clearances all around each door. It is then after you have basically assembled the whole body of the car and are completely satisfied on the component fits, you can then disassemble everything again for glueing and screwing, keeping everything in alignment with fixture rods and clamps, once again as you work up and back. Please don't cut any original sized metal. Those metal pieces are your guide back to the correct locations. Use glue and wood toothpicks and various sizes of wood dowels to blank off any unwanted screw or nail holes.
Great satisfaction with the end product when done correctly.

[Cider Mill]

Yup, Terry take lots of pics to post! I did mean the side to side C-line. Terry, are you using your frame to bolt the new wood up to when you say start with the bolt holes that hold the cowl? What are you assembling the wood on?

[Terry, NJ]

I'm probably doing it bass ackwards! I'm assembling the wood from inside the body shell. I have no way placing the body over the frame once the frame is done. And it's easier to fit individual pieces, for me anyway.
I found when I used the two front 7/16 bolt holes, at the front of the wood sill, the rest of the holes lined up pretty well. I originally tried working off the the four 5/16 holes in the rear bumper brackets and found that it threw the rest of the holes off. I have very few screws into the wood yet. Not quite far enough a long for permanent securing.
Terry

Originally Posted by Cider Mill

Yup, Terry take lots of pics to post! I did mean the side to side C-line. Terry, are you using your frame to bolt the new wood up to when you say start with the bolt holes that hold the cowl? What are you assembling the wood on?