Adjustable Valve Lifter Installation

[Dick Deegan]

Good Morning Everyone;

A week or so ago I posted about a friend who has a 29 with non adjustable valves. The valve lash is very tight on his engine with valves on #1 at close to zero. The best valve is 0.008".

If we remove the head etc. etc. I am wondering if it is possible to install adjustable lifters with the engine in the car. Can the cam be removed with the engine in the car and new adjustable lifters, new valves, keepers etc. and guides be installed?

Also what is the recommendation for adjustable lifters - one nut or two. I have two nut lifters in my car and they are a real pain to adjust, but they seem to hold their adjustment. I have heard complaints about the one nut adjusters going out of adjustment. What say you?

Dick

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Dick, the best valves are the originals. You can grind the ends with a little belt sander, to get the desired gap. Someone told me once, "Don't worry about the valves you hear, it's the one's you don't hear that should be of concern!' See you in Goderich in 2 weeks! Jim

[Russ/40]

Like Jim says, your situation is ideal, in that you have none that are too loose.......consequently, you can butt grind them all and pass on the adjustables. I would fabricate some kind of fixture so you can be assured your butt grinding will be flat and true.

[Patrick L.]

I think the easiest thing to do is adjust what you have.. You could measure and mark every valve, then take them to someone with a valve grinder and have him/them grind the stems.. Many old auto shops have them gathering dust in a dark corner and many aircraft repair facilities still use them regularly...

[Jim/GA]

While I agree with other comments to use what you have, to answer your original question: yes, you can do it with the engine in the car.

I find it frustrating to ask a question and get lots of replies except for an answer to the original question. I don't know if 1 nut is better than 2 on the lifters. I have heard you need 3 hands to adjust the 3 nut style. Kind of a tight space for 3 hands.

[Purdy Swoft]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I agree with Jim/TX I will just add a few thoughts. If you decide to use what you have ,you will have to remove the head, valve guides and the valves. I have ground valve stems on my bench grinder but you've gotta be real careful. The valves are too hard to cut with a file. I would remove and do one valve at a time so as to not mix them up. Too small of valve clearance will cause burned valves and a low speed miss at the very least. I set my original type valves used with an original stock cam at .016 intake and exhaust and have NO problems.

The valve lifters can be replaced with the engine in the car but it won't be easy. You won't need to remove the head. You will need to remove the radiator, timing cover, valve cover, valve springs, oil pan and the cam shaft. After removing the valve springs, you can use clothes pins to hold up the old lifters for clearance to remove the cam. If you go this route I would recommend the single lock lifters, for two reasons. Obviously the single lock lifters are easier to adjust but they have a larger base. The larger base is easier on the camshaft lobes and iI believe will effect duration and performance.

[Jim Brierley]

Purdy has it right, it can be done but is a lot of work. If you do that I would change the timing gear too, my recommendation is to install an aluminum gear.

[Richard Redmond]

Dear Dick, I'm very keen to keep a Model A as original as possible - but I drew a line at the original valve lifters and the idea of grinding the valve stems.

I agree that they can be replaced with the engine in place. The oil pan is dropped as - if I remember correctly - the lifters drop down with the camshaft out.
I chose the single nut adjuster type. I had no prior advice or experience but their design seemed to be pretty good. I do a low mileage so I don't know how well your inlet / exhaust clearances will last on a 500 mile tour. However....the adjustment is now quite easy - particularly for you USA guys with no steering column and box on that side. Spark plugs out, crank handle in to turn over, valve cover off, set up a good light and it's a nice job.

RMR

[Dick Deegan]

Thanks for the reply;

If I did install new adjustable lifters I would have to change the valves, retainers, keepers and valve guides as well, wouldn't I?? I am asking the question. It was my impression that original valves will not work with adjustable lifters. Am I correct?

Dick

[Dick Deegan]

Thanks for all of the replies and advice. I will see what the owner of the car wants to do.

Dick

[Richard Redmond]

In my case - I used the original valves.

I had the engine out at the time and the head was off, so all I did was check the valve seats, lapped the valves and renewed the valve springs.

I don't think that the original valves need to be changed or modified - assuming that they are sound.

RMR

[Diastole]

To Jim, the #2 poster: (or anyone, I'm new to this)

What does a valve lifter sound like?

I have a new noise, loudest when the stethoscope is on the valve cover. Sounds like a tick-tick-tick. Occurred anew after the points closed on me, and the engine backfired a lot, then it quit.

Already checked
1) removed and examined my fibrous timing gear
a) spring checked and measures 32.2 lbs
b) no gap between gear TG and crank gear
c) dowel pins holes not wallard out
2) The distributor is seated and does not turn the shaft without damage
3) Shorted out each plug -- no change in knock
4) The crank pulley is not loose
5) water pump good
6) No exhaust or intake manifold leak
a) WD-40 test
b) rag in the tail pipe does not change tick-tick-tick
7) Inspected the spark plugs; all looked good with no deposits


Checked compression and all four
all within 5% of each other at 91 psi.
Snyder HC head
did not do a leak-down test because good compressions
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iNf6rcdLcRHy6z3hCh8bjzNczV1ioXfW/view?usp=drive_link

No metal in oil.

Car timed easily.
Starts easy
purrs and accelerates normally
Hard to hear if the tick-tick-tick (new engine noise) is present at RPMs over idle

I pulled the valve cover. All looks great to me. No broken springs.
I will check the gaps tonight, looking for 0.0013" on exhaust valves and 0.015" on intake valves. I have the single nut adjustable lifters.


I am at a loss and I am a newbie to the Model A

Please Advise and Help,
Much Gratitude,

Diastole in the Smokies

[nkaminar]

Exhaust valve should have the larger clearance. Excessive clearance will make for noisy valves. A little tappet noise is normal.

Lots of backfiring out the exhaust may have caused a leak at the exhaust manifold gaskets. That can be a ticking noise. Check for an exhaust leak by holding one end of a hose to your ear and then running the other one around where an exhaust leak may be.

[Herb Concord Ca]

Check the tappet clearance, like nkaminar says, the intake is smaller than exhaust. My rebuilt engine still clatters after 7000 miles. I just live with.

[Diastole]

Thanks for the input
I measured the gaps after inspecting the galley. I also measured and ensured there is a negative slope into the timing gear chamber, even though I was having no problems there.

Six of my eight valve gaps were wider or over spec. Two were within Les Andrews's published tolerances.
Could a max variance of 0.004" in one valve really cause my tick-tick-tick?
The gaps seem pretty close to me, but I am new to the A Model. Are gaps of 3-thousandths really a big deal?

I also measured and ensured a negative slope to the timing gear passage, even though I was not experiencing a problem there; see the photo.

I inspected the whole galley, too. All seemed good.
>Springs are good, none broken
>Nominal downslope to timing gear window
>No obvious valve stems bent
>All lifters turn effortlessly
>Sludge in the galley, no sparkles, metal shards, or chips

Any suggestions?

I really appreciate any help you can provide.

Diastole

[nkaminar]

A clearance that is 0.004 wider than it should be can cause a ticking noise. The reason is that the cam has a slight slope before the valve starts to open which closes up the gap a little and quiets the engine. If the gap is wider then this slope is defeated.

As I mentioned earlier, a ticking noise can be an exhaust leak from a blown gasket. I see you have the copper clad gaskets, that are the good ones. You may want to tighten up the manifold bolts. I torque to 55 foot-pounds but others torque to 25.

[JayJay]

Diastole - while the "ticking"noise you describe can be annoying, given the valve lash you measured, the compression readings, and the fact that the car starts and runs fine, I'd say drive it and leave it. Or fiddle with the valve adjustment, as long as you are this far into it go ahead and nail it spot-on (that's what I'd do in your situation).

NK may be onto something re: the manifold leak, that can sound like a "ticking" as well. If you want to eliminate that as a potential issue, go ahead and pull the manifolds, check to make sure you don't have any sag at the #4 exhaust (I once had an exhaust manifold that was so sagged at #4 that it exposed the opening in the block!), and check that the dead flat across all sealing surfaces (you may have to have a machine shop deck the manifold assembly for you).

To check for sag, put a straightedge across the bottoms of the openings of the manifold assembly. They should all line up, in my experience #1 E, #1/2 I, #2 E and #3/4 I will line up pretty well, with sag starting to show at #3 E and being very apparent at #4 E.

Silly thing as well, but are you leaking at the manifold connection to the exhaust pipe? Or did your backfires possibly blow out a rust hole in your exhaust downtube or muffler?

[Diastole]

NK and Jayjay,

Thank you so much. I certainly can try to torque down the exhaust manifold bolts some. I did torque them to 25 foot pounds when I installed them. In testing for an exhaust manifold leak I sprayed WD-40 all around the exhaust manifold and recognized no change in the sound of the engine, the revving or smoothness of the engine. It did not appear that the engine leaned out or revved up. Also, I did not see any bubbling or gas escaping From where the WD-40 was sprayed.
Also, I put a rag on the tailpipe, occluding the outflow of the exhaust gases, and the noise did not change at all with a separate listener at the engine
The down tube and tailpipe are all a new Ares stainless steel muffler assembly less than a year old
I used the red Permetex at the junction between the manifold and the tail pipe
When I had the manifold off, we checked the flatness and got no more than 0.003” on number four
Installed with gland rings

I will retighten the manifold bolts and report back

Thank you
Diastole

[Jim/GA]

Diastole-
After you finish up what you are doing, just button it up and drive it. A little valve clicking is better than not having enough clearance. I have a few lifters that click when cold and they clear up when the engine warms up.
.

[nkaminar]

One trick I learned is the "rule of 9." When valve 8 is up measure 1, when 7 is up measure 2, etc. The sum is always 9.