The Ford Barn

Geokop · 05-20-2026, 11:28 AM

Hi Everyone,
I've found a highly original 1913 Touring car that the owner will sell to me if I want it, which is a 99% "yes". The engine and transmission have no more than 100 miles on them after a major Kevin Prus rebuild. It has a new Berg, square tube radiator, a new gas tank and shut-off valve, and the Holly Model S carb has been gone through and serviced where needed. It's been converted to electric start but has no generator; I'd be OK with periodically connecting a charger to the added (six volt) battery. (The original hogs head and non-ring geared flywheel would be included with the purchase.) This car even has an exhaust whistle. Cool! The body wood is very solid, and the chassis / underside is very clean. No signs of rust or rot anywhere. The seats and inner door liners really look like they're 113 years old, though. The top was down when I looked at the car in the owner's shop but was told it's in good shape.
The only big question mark is whether or not the rear thrust washer is bronze or Babbit. I've read and have been told that up to a point, Ford used bronze washers and later switched to Babbit due to it being cheaper. Would a '13 still have the preferred, bronze thrust washer? I'd hope not to have to tear into the differential to find out, but I wouldn't want to be driving along and find out the hard way after a total failure.
Thanks very much for any / all replies.

stevests · 05-20-2026, 01:08 PM

Not sure if you could I.D. the thrust washers with a borescope but if you do have to tear into it, chances are you will be replacing axles, bearings, sleeves & all related driveshaft parts for peace of mind & passenger safety.

rotorwrench · 05-20-2026, 01:57 PM

From what I've read about the rear axle thrust washers is that Ford always used the babbitt washers with the steels. Since the trust washer is what limits axle movement for the most part, a person can jack one wheel at a time and see now much end play there is between the two. The left one is the first on the list since it is usually the one that controls the ring gear location. Too much gear noise is another indication since any looseness in there will start to affect the ring and pinion as well. Chunks of babbitt in the differential oil would be another indication. The model Ts always used the Hyatt spiral wound flat roller bearings for most load bearing journals so this is why they needed thrust bearings. The Timken tapered rollers in the model A cars took up all the thrust loads.

This is a good link but it's a later 26/27 one with the rear hub brakes:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html

Marshall V. Daut · 05-21-2026, 07:13 PM

Depending upon price, don't let the thrust washer issue be a deciding factor whether you buy this car or not. Important as those thrust washers are, it's not a show-stopper to replace them. Yes, the rear end has to come out and be disassembled (including removing the rear spring), but anyone with basic tools and a common mechanical horse sense can do the job. Just purchase the MTFCA rear end booklet and/or the video tapes showing how to overhaul a Model T rear end. The Ford service manual will also be helpful. The parts expense is negligible - two brass washers and new housing gaskets. This is probably a two-day/weekend job, but it is SOOOOOOOO important that any Babbitt thrust washers be replaced. When the old Babbitt thrust washers disintegrate and break apart, you no longer have any brakes! The ring gear and pinion gear teeth could also be damaged.
If you are seriously considering buying this highly desirable year Model T, just plan on adding another couple of hundred dollars to the price tag for parts and possibly hiring someone to do this if you don't feel competent to do the job yourself.
Marshall

Geokop · 05-22-2026, 02:26 PM

Thanks very much for the kind replies thus far!
I like the idea of trying to I.D. the washer material with a bore scope inspection, going the least invasive route first, but should it come down to it, I'm game to conduct a complete tear down. Buy the book(s) and follow the instructions just like I used to with bicycles.
That's why I've been confused, though, as I thought Ford used the infamous Babbit washers throughout production, but then I read / was told that Ford began using bronze for washers but switched to Babbit because it was cheaper, (and that the switch was made around 1914 or '15??)
Thankfully, the cost of a few new parts, even if new bearings and gears are needed, won't break the bank. I've worked hard and have saved / invested my whole life to be able to "play around" like this today.
The seller is still going through and checking a few things before he'll shake on the deal; maybe he's inspecting those washers! I trust his judgement and integrity completely. I'm going to wait until the deal is done before buying the necessary tools for T ownership, like a floor jack and stands to begin with.
Rotorwrench, thanks for sharing Steve Jelf's video. Perhaps some bar stock will be in order also. Worst case scenario, I'd tear into everything to find it all structurally sound with the bearing having been already replaced years ago!
Keep the comments / thoughts coming!

Kurt in NJ · 05-23-2026, 01:58 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I bought a 17 that was restored on the early 60s and although I figured it probably had bronze thrust washers because of some fine brass flakes in the oil I figured it would be best to look inside.
Found new looking axles, roller bearings,ring gear but the nut on the pinion gear was loose and the keyway wallowed out and cracked driveshaft.

The cotton band lining also deteriorated rapidly after short period of driving and clogged the oil feed to the front of the engine that I was told didn’t have but few miles of driving after rebuilding.

one of the axle bearing sleeves was in the wrong side and was worn at the seam.
Driving the car there were no symptoms or noises from the rear but it wasn’t far from a failure that would have damaged a lot of the parts.

Geokop · 05-23-2026, 11:36 PM

I guess "rebuilt" doesn't necessarily mean "rebuilt right" but the current owner has an impeccable reputation for knowing what he's doing (I've never heard of negative feedback regarding him). Perhaps he'll settle the issue.

So, what is it with the thrust washers? Were they always Babbit throughout production or did Ford switch to Babbit in the mid-teens?

Thanks very much again for all input. My brain is soaking up all of this info.!

05-20-2026, 11:28 AM	#1
Geokop Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 44	A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question Hi Everyone, I've found a highly original 1913 Touring car that the owner will sell to me if I want it, which is a 99% "yes". The engine and transmission have no more than 100 miles on them after a major Kevin Prus rebuild. It has a new Berg, square tube radiator, a new gas tank and shut-off valve, and the Holly Model S carb has been gone through and serviced where needed. It's been converted to electric start but has no generator; I'd be OK with periodically connecting a charger to the added (six volt) battery. (The original hogs head and non-ring geared flywheel would be included with the purchase.) This car even has an exhaust whistle. Cool! The body wood is very solid, and the chassis / underside is very clean. No signs of rust or rot anywhere. The seats and inner door liners really look like they're 113 years old, though. The top was down when I looked at the car in the owner's shop but was told it's in good shape. The only big question mark is whether or not the rear thrust washer is bronze or Babbit. I've read and have been told that up to a point, Ford used bronze washers and later switched to Babbit due to it being cheaper. Would a '13 still have the preferred, bronze thrust washer? I'd hope not to have to tear into the differential to find out, but I wouldn't want to be driving along and find out the hard way after a total failure. Thanks very much for any / all replies.

05-20-2026, 01:08 PM	#2
stevests Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Longbranch, Washington Posts: 683	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question Not sure if you could I.D. the thrust washers with a borescope but if you do have to tear into it, chances are you will be replacing axles, bearings, sleeves & all related driveshaft parts for peace of mind & passenger safety.

05-20-2026, 01:57 PM	#3
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 18,007	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question From what I've read about the rear axle thrust washers is that Ford always used the babbitt washers with the steels. Since the trust washer is what limits axle movement for the most part, a person can jack one wheel at a time and see now much end play there is between the two. The left one is the first on the list since it is usually the one that controls the ring gear location. Too much gear noise is another indication since any looseness in there will start to affect the ring and pinion as well. Chunks of babbitt in the differential oil would be another indication. The model Ts always used the Hyatt spiral wound flat roller bearings for most load bearing journals so this is why they needed thrust bearings. The Timken tapered rollers in the model A cars took up all the thrust loads. This is a good link but it's a later 26/27 one with the rear hub brakes: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2026 at 02:06 PM.

05-21-2026, 07:13 PM	#4
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,891	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question Depending upon price, don't let the thrust washer issue be a deciding factor whether you buy this car or not. Important as those thrust washers are, it's not a show-stopper to replace them. Yes, the rear end has to come out and be disassembled (including removing the rear spring), but anyone with basic tools and a common mechanical horse sense can do the job. Just purchase the MTFCA rear end booklet and/or the video tapes showing how to overhaul a Model T rear end. The Ford service manual will also be helpful. The parts expense is negligible - two brass washers and new housing gaskets. This is probably a two-day/weekend job, but it is SOOOOOOOO important that any Babbitt thrust washers be replaced. When the old Babbitt thrust washers disintegrate and break apart, you no longer have any brakes! The ring gear and pinion gear teeth could also be damaged. If you are seriously considering buying this highly desirable year Model T, just plan on adding another couple of hundred dollars to the price tag for parts and possibly hiring someone to do this if you don't feel competent to do the job yourself. Marshall

05-22-2026, 02:26 PM	#5
Geokop Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 44	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question Thanks very much for the kind replies thus far! I like the idea of trying to I.D. the washer material with a bore scope inspection, going the least invasive route first, but should it come down to it, I'm game to conduct a complete tear down. Buy the book(s) and follow the instructions just like I used to with bicycles. That's why I've been confused, though, as I thought Ford used the infamous Babbit washers throughout production, but then I read / was told that Ford began using bronze for washers but switched to Babbit because it was cheaper, (and that the switch was made around 1914 or '15??) Thankfully, the cost of a few new parts, even if new bearings and gears are needed, won't break the bank. I've worked hard and have saved / invested my whole life to be able to "play around" like this today. The seller is still going through and checking a few things before he'll shake on the deal; maybe he's inspecting those washers! I trust his judgement and integrity completely. I'm going to wait until the deal is done before buying the necessary tools for T ownership, like a floor jack and stands to begin with. Rotorwrench, thanks for sharing Steve Jelf's video. Perhaps some bar stock will be in order also. Worst case scenario, I'd tear into everything to find it all structurally sound with the bearing having been already replaced years ago! Keep the comments / thoughts coming!

05-23-2026, 01:58 PM	#6
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,672	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I bought a 17 that was restored on the early 60s and although I figured it probably had bronze thrust washers because of some fine brass flakes in the oil I figured it would be best to look inside. Found new looking axles, roller bearings,ring gear but the nut on the pinion gear was loose and the keyway wallowed out and cracked driveshaft. The cotton band lining also deteriorated rapidly after short period of driving and clogged the oil feed to the front of the engine that I was told didn’t have but few miles of driving after rebuilding. one of the axle bearing sleeves was in the wrong side and was worn at the seam. Driving the car there were no symptoms or noises from the rear but it wasn’t far from a failure that would have damaged a lot of the parts.

05-23-2026, 11:36 PM	#7
Geokop Member Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 44	Re: A Possible T Purchase and a Rear End Question I guess "rebuilt" doesn't necessarily mean "rebuilt right" but the current owner has an impeccable reputation for knowing what he's doing (I've never heard of negative feedback regarding him). Perhaps he'll settle the issue. So, what is it with the thrust washers? Were they always Babbit throughout production or did Ford switch to Babbit in the mid-teens? Thanks very much again for all input. My brain is soaking up all of this info.!