Who would take on these Model A Restorations?

[AYooperA]

I been looking at Model A’s for sale as I boil sap this morning. I wonder if there are some out there who would consider restoring these cars for the joy and satisfaction other than what it would ultimately cost. I am well along on my Phaeton and another in the wings when I finish. It can be a long and frustrating journey but something I really enjoy.

I don’t know these Sellers or situations but just putting out as examples under $10k

[Keith True]

Every one of those cars are completely doable projects.Most guys I know that have built cars start with far less than those are.Then I've met guys that won't touch a car if every hair isn't in place to start with.About 20 years ago I sold a 400 A to a guy like that.He sent somebody to inspect it,and the first words out of the guys mouth were,I'm not here to pick it apart for a better price,just to see if it meets his criteria.It will either be an,I'll take it,or a,no thank you.It was sold in minutes.Around the same time frame I built a 28 open cab pickup because I had a near perfect roadster cowl and stanchions that had come from Pages Model A Garage.

[elabbe79]

In the sales section, someone is selling a Model A for $10,500, from Ohio, and the car looks amazing.

[AYooperA]

Elabbe, I agree that looks like a nice car for the money. I was thinking of the unfinished, forlorn or forgotten Model A’s that appear on any marketplace website.

[old ugly]

lots of folks would build those cars.
here is what i started with except i had to find fenders. and scrounged lots of parts. ended up being a nice shop/work truck.

that sport coupe would be my choice if i was 10 years yonger.

[Gene F]

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Those are all worth it, especially if you are doing a lot of work yourself.

First of all when I buy a collector car I want it all to be there. I prefer it all to be on the car, not in any boxes. I live in a title state, so if it is coming from a title state I need the title in your name, the VIN to match, and you to sign it over before a Notary. Restorations cost more than people think. Restorations tend to put the car upside-down financially. You are money ahead in the long-run to buy a better car to start with.

Model-As are much safer purchase than a lot of other collector cars. Also, they are usable, especially with cast iron drums, a high quality radiator, and an overdrive.

[Cory Moffat]

Looks like mine years ago

[rotorwrench]

The Fordors with lots of wood are the tough ones if they are rotted. It's more expensive than ever to do a heavy restoration but some folks just like the challenge,

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by elabbe79

In the sales section, someone is selling a Model A for $10,500, from Ohio, and the car looks amazing.

He sells a lot of A’s , never shows the underside , he has or had a sedan delivery that I was interested in but bought a 29 extended cab truck , wish I had a bigger shed , more the merrier !!!!

[Seth Swoboda]

The problem is the asking price. They are asking $5,000-$6,000 for Tudors and Fordors when you can buy a nice restored Tudor/Fordor for $10-15,000. Why would you spend tens of thousands more to restore one when you can buy one for much less? The cost of the restoration, even doing ALL of the work yourself, far exceeds the value of buying a ready to drive car. Or is logic something that I should not consider?


The '31 Victoria in my avatar photo, I'd probably struggle to get $20,000 for it if I had it for sale.

[Ayers1]

I just finished a 31 town sedan that started very much like the one in the original pics above. I have a Tudor that was much rougher! I would do any of the ones above for the enjoyment of getting them back on the road.

[Grier]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

The problem is the asking price. They are asking $5,000-$6,000 for Tudors and Fordors when you can buy a nice restored Tudor/Fordor for $10-15,000. Why would you spend tens of thousands more to restore one when you can buy one for much less? The cost of the restoration, even doing ALL of the work yourself, far exceeds the value of buying a ready to drive car. Or is logic something that I should not consider?


The '31 Victoria in my avatar photo, I'd probably struggle to get $20,000 for it if I had it for sale.

I agree, just because it’s old, many people have a highly inflated value in their heads of what “their treasure” is worth. Spending $10k on a drivable car is money well spent to start a restoration project. In fact I would say you would be saving money.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Grier

I agree, just because it’s old, many people have a highly inflated value in their heads of what “their treasure” is worth. Spending $10k on a drivable car is money well spent to start a restoration project. In fact I would say you would be saving money.

I'm sure we have all been asked by a member of the public at some time "What is it worth?" only to be amazed that it is sooo cheap. I'm sure that it being old, they expect something much higher.
As for those cars, The cost of restoration here is higher than over there because of the price of parts. I would take on one of those (not a 4 door) but not do a top end restoration on it. I'd do more like a "repair and drive it" job. IMO, I get at least as much enjoyment out of such a car as I did when I was real fussy about "getting it right".
I used to get my enjoyment out of producing a very nice car at the end of a lot of work but my focus has changed. I enjoy driving them now and a repaired, not restored car means I don't get up tight about things like stone chips are people looking with their finger.

[David R.]

My AA project was a basket case. I’ve spent more on it than it would ever be worth. I agree that the best bargain is likely an already restored vehicle.
But I really have enjoyed the challenge and the good thing is I have learned a great deal and by necessity have become an expert on it. Plus I know that nothing mechanical was overlooked. I have seen really nice looking cars that some of the mechanical restoration was a bit washed over, I guess if you only plan to drive it in and out of the trailer that’s ok.

[Wick]

If they have a title, buy a battery ($140) add 4 decent used tires, ($100) and try to start.
If you drive it around the yard then sell for $7,500 + 1 case of beer. Bonus if the Horn and lights work.
Throw in a carburetor kit, distributor and other misc. Parts you want to get rid of.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

The problem is the asking price. They are asking $5,000-$6,000 for Tudors and Fordors when you can buy a nice restored Tudor/Fordor for $10-15,000. Why would you spend tens of thousands more to restore one when you can buy one for much less? The cost of the restoration, even doing ALL of the work yourself, far exceeds the value of buying a ready to drive car. Or is logic something that I should not consider?

Standing on the opposite side of the fence from the comments above allows me to see a different side of reality. Please allow me to share a perspective that many of y'all working on hypothetical assumptions never see.

To begin with, it has been my experiences for many, many years now that most hobbyists that buy a 'restored' Model-A buy someone else's problems. I have seen this over, and over again where a new hobbyist buys a "restored" Model-A from the web and gives strong money only to get the vehicle home and find they were lied to. I can recite story after story (-as can others who repair Model-As for their living) where someone buys a good-looking Model-A that has supposedly been restored and they were told the vehicle is ready to go have fun. So, they make their winning bid and pay the transportation costs to get it home.

Then the excitement gradually turns to disappointment as little by little the issues surface over the next month or so. The vehicle will not safely stop because the local club member guys were clueless on how to restore Brakes. They were, however, good at applying paint out of an aerosol can. Additionally it does not start reliably because the wiring has been McGuyvered and patched, the Distributor is worn, and the rebuilt Carburetor (-the one with the worn Throttle shaft and the scored GAV seat) leaks like Niagara Falls. Also, when the freshly painted stock Engine has run for a few minutes, that 'restored' Model-A leaves a large puddle of oil underneath because the bearing thrust is killed and there aren't any shims left to remove. But even when we struggle with those issues because everyone says that is just how Model-As are, they cautiously drive it a few miles before the power diminishes enough they are left on the side of the road because of a rusted gas tank that plugged the fuel line. That's Ok because they needed to pull over and allow the overheating engine to cool due to a tired Radiator and a Water Pump that leaked water. So while waiting on the tow truck, the Model-A passengers have time to call around finding someone who will 'uber' them back home since everyone cannot ride home in the tow truck. After the new owner has paid the $100 tow bill to get his prize back home, he joins a few of the social media Model-A pages to get some advice. After spending hours following their advice without any success he chooses to find his local Model-A Club to assist with the repairs. Afterall, he read on Fordbarn and other places to get the local club to help him out. So the local guys graciously show up around 9:00 on a Saturday where they promptly start devouring the two-dozen Donut and Coffee that the new hobbyist graciously provided. Then around 11:30, after talking about possibilities and disassembling a few easy items someone mentions it is about time to go eat lunch so they choose a restaurant and off they go. After lunch, the enthusiastic club members suddenly remember they have things to do that afternoon (-i.e.: take a nap), so they politely excuse themselves never to be seen again. I could go on, but I think you see where this is going.

So now, the new Model-A owner reaches out to find professional help to get his Model-A functioning where he and his family can enjoy it after spending money on a car that the expert Club member supposed restored. After another transportation expense, we do a quick assessment and give them a rundown. A new Radiator and leakless Water Pump including Radiator will be around $2k. To properly rebuild Brakes will be between $5k-$6k if the Rear Axle housings are not worn (which generally they are.). The Engine Rebuild including labor can be anywhere between $7.5k-$15k depending on options. The rusty Gas Tank restoration will be around $3k including R&R, Resto, Repainting, etc. Better budget around $2k-$3k for new Tires & Tubes. At this point we are nearing $30k for a vehicle he gave $20k for and the owner still has a poorly restored vehicle. For double that amount he has spent, he could have a newly restored Model-A that was professionally done in the color of his choosing, a fresh interior, straightened Frame, rebuilt Front & Rear Axles, rebuilt Steering Gearbox, new Shocks, straightened Wheels (-or new ones), fresh & shiny britework, etc., etc.

Most Forum members do not understand how things in this Hobby have changed and are totally different than of 30-50 years ago. Today, there are more people wanting professionally restored Model-As than there are Shops to fulfill their need. These Hobbyists are not having a Model-A restored as a financial investment. They are doing it because of desire. There generally is an underlying reason why they choose to have a vehicle restored. It was once a family member's Model-A that they want to drive and enjoy. It was a Model-A just like one they had in a former life. They want a Model-A of their own to tour with friends. What I have always found intriguing with Model-A people is the mindset that the owner should never spend more than the car will sell for. Most other hobbies do not see this skewed mindset. Gardening rarely ever sees a ROI. Golfing rarely ever sees a ROI. The money spent on RV-ing never is financially prudent however this country sees new ones sold every day. The same with Fishing or Hunting, or Off-roading. No one buys a boat, a gun, or a SxS with the thoughts that it will be cheaper than buying a fish or meat. So why is it the mindset that you shouldn't spend money on a Model-A??


As a side note, ...buying a running, restored Model-A to re-restore is a waste of money IMHO. People put a premium on buying a Model-A to restore that has a running Engine. Buying a 'restored' Model-A is of no benefit if in reality it was 'restored' with incorrect or worn-out parts. Sheetmetal that has shiny paint over rusted panels that have ¼" of Bondo hiding rust-throughs is of no value when a complete restoration is about to happen. Think about it.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Standing on the opposite side of the fence from the comments above allows me to see a different side of reality. Please allow me to share a perspective that many of y'all working on hypothetical assumptions never see.

To begin with, it has been my experiences for many, many years now that most hobbyists that buy a 'restored' Model-A buy someone else's problems. I have seen this over, and over again where a new hobbyist buys a "restored" Model-A from the web and gives strong money only to get the vehicle home and find they were lied to. I can recite story after story (-as can others who repair Model-As for their living) where someone buys a good-looking Model-A that has supposedly been restored and they were told the vehicle is ready to go have fun. So, they make their winning bid and pay the transportation costs to get it home.

Then the excitement gradually turns to disappointment as little by little the issues surface over the next month or so. The vehicle will not safely stop because the local club member guys were clueless on how to restore Brakes. They were, however, good at applying paint out of an aerosol can. Additionally it does not start reliably because the wiring has been McGuyvered and patched, the Distributor is worn, and the rebuilt Carburetor (-the one with the worn Throttle shaft and the scored GAV seat) leaks like Niagara Falls. Also, when the freshly painted stock Engine has run for a few minutes, that 'restored' Model-A leaves a large puddle of oil underneath because the bearing thrust is killed and there aren't any shims left to remove. But even when we struggle with those issues because everyone says that is just how Model-As are, they cautiously drive it a few miles before the power diminishes enough they are left on the side of the road because of a rusted gas tank that plugged the fuel line. That's Ok because they needed to pull over and allow the overheating engine to cool due to a tired Radiator and a Water Pump that leaked water. So while waiting on the tow truck, the Model-A passengers have time to call around finding someone who will 'uber' them back home since everyone cannot ride home in the tow truck. After the new owner has paid the $100 tow bill to get his prize back home, he joins a few of the social media Model-A pages to get some advice. After spending hours following their advice without any success he chooses to find his local Model-A Club to assist with the repairs. Afterall, he read on Fordbarn and other places to get the local club to help him out. So the local guys graciously show up around 9:00 on a Saturday where they promptly start devouring the two-dozen Donut and Coffee that the new hobbyist graciously provided. Then around 11:30, after talking about possibilities and disassembling a few easy items someone mentions it is about time to go eat lunch so they choose a restaurant and off they go. After lunch, the enthusiastic club members suddenly remember they have things to do that afternoon (-i.e.: take a nap), so they politely excuse themselves never to be seen again. I could go on, but I think you see where this is going.

So now, the new Model-A owner reaches out to find professional help to get his Model-A functioning where he and his family can enjoy it after spending money on a car that the expert Club member supposed restored. After another transportation expense, we do a quick assessment and give them a rundown. A new Radiator and leakless Water Pump including Radiator will be around $2k. To properly rebuild Brakes will be between $5k-$6k if the Rear Axle housings are not worn (which generally they are.). The Engine Rebuild including labor can be anywhere between $7.5k-$15k depending on options. The rusty Gas Tank restoration will be around $3k including R&R, Resto, Repainting, etc. Better budget around $2k-$3k for new Tires & Tubes. At this point we are nearing $30k for a vehicle he gave $20k for and the owner still has a poorly restored vehicle. For double that amount he has spent, he could have a newly restored Model-A that was professionally done in the color of his choosing, a fresh interior, straightened Frame, rebuilt Front & Rear Axles, rebuilt Steering Gearbox, new Shocks, straightened Wheels (-or new ones), fresh & shiny britework, etc., etc.

Most Forum members do not understand how things in this Hobby have changed and are totally different than of 30-50 years ago. Today, there are more people wanting professionally restored Model-As than there are Shops to fulfill their need. These Hobbyists are not having a Model-A restored as a financial investment. They are doing it because of desire. There generally is an underlying reason why they choose to have a vehicle restored. It was once a family member's Model-A that they want to drive and enjoy. It was a Model-A just like one they had in a former life. They want a Model-A of their own to tour with friends. What I have always found intriguing with Model-A people is the mindset that the owner should never spend more than the car will sell for. Most other hobbies do not see this skewed mindset. Gardening rarely ever sees a ROI. Golfing rarely ever sees a ROI. The money spent on RV-ing never is financially prudent however this country sees new ones sold every day. The same with Fishing or Hunting, or Off-roading. No one buys a boat, a gun, or a SxS with the thoughts that it will be cheaper than buying a fish or meat. So why is it the mindset that you shouldn't spend money on a Model-A??


As a side note, ...buying a running, restored Model-A to re-restore is a waste of money IMHO. People put a premium on buying a Model-A to restore that has a running Engine. Buying a 'restored' Model-A is of no benefit if in reality it was 'restored' with incorrect or worn-out parts. Sheetmetal that has shiny paint over rusted panels that have ¼" of Bondo hiding rust-throughs is of no value when a complete restoration is about to happen. Think about it.

There are always a few exceptions of folks who to them, well it's just money. Those are fewer and far between. I stand by what I said. These cars have lost value and just do not sell for the money they used to. You can buy an older restoration, professional or amateur, for not much money, sort it out and drive it for less than you could ever restore one in today's economy. Most of the folks who own Model A's and early V8's don't own a 999 point show car and they don't care to. Few people here or elsewhere would spend $6,000 on a total project Tudor when they could buy a good driver for $10,000.


Hot rodders, they'll spend that money to rod it. Not a purist.

[jb-ob]

2X Seth.

Price what an interior will cost for any of those cars with the same for plating. There are just too many nice finished cars for sale.

More cost effective to buy a finished car, learn about it and the hobby first before attempting a complete restoration of a hulk.

[bobv]

After reading that I'll never buy another model A

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

There are always a few exceptions of folks who to them, well it's just money. Those are fewer and far between. I stand by what I said. These cars have lost value and just do not sell for the money they used to. You can buy an older restoration, professional or amateur, for not much money, sort it out and drive it for less than you could ever restore one in today's economy. Most of the folks who own Model A's and early V8's don't own a 999 point show car and they don't care to. Few people here or elsewhere would spend $6,000 on a total project Tudor when they could buy a good driver for $10,000.


Hot rodders, they'll spend that money to rod it. Not a purist.

Seth, while I definitely understand why you would think that, the reality is much different. The #1 reason why Model-As are not bringing the money they used to is because the majority of Model-A on the markets are poorly restored and/or they have been driven where they are worn out. Most of the good cars are sold privately and the ones that are 'needy' are typically the cheap ones seen for sale.

There apparently is a misconception that 'professional restorers' only restore 500 point show cars (-not sure what a 999 point show car is) however most Professional Shops that I know generally do not restore Model-As for Fine Point. Additionally, most 'Purists' restore accurately & authentically themselves, so they really don't spend large sums of money to meet their objectives. And again, most hobbyists that purchase a Model-A, they buy one that is been advertised as Restored simply because they want to drive and enjoy it. They do not have the time nor the desire to 'sort it out' before they start driving it.

One other thing you mentioned that I believe has changed, is the idea that people that will spend money on collector cars are few and far between. Good restoration shops, and/or collector car repair shops have never been busier. Don't believe me, call one and ask them what their backlog is. Even specialty suppliers such as engine rebuilders, upholstery suppliers, chrome platers, etc. etc. are very busy with most having a backlog rivaling any in history. And, wile you are speaking with those shops, ask them what their hourly rate is. So, if your statement above is accurate about finding people with big budgets willing to pay to have a car restored is few & far between, then why are all of these shops booked a year or two out??

Originally Posted by bobv

After reading that I'll never buy another model A

After reading what??