Les Andrews way of timing...

[Tom Cavallaro]

I finally made a timing light to check the advance while setting the timing like Les Andrews says.
I have my light come on on the first click when you pull the lever down....I'm thinking I'm perfect! Now it's hard to start?? Am I two close? Before I checked it and on the third click down the light would come on, the car always started right up. What's up with this picture?

[RonC]

set your timing according to the Ford Service Bulletins:

[Marco Tahtaras]

Does it start?

How far did you have to rotate the cam/rotor from where it was when it was three clicks? It shouldn't have been much! I'm wondering if you missed the timing mark with the pin.

[Tom Cavallaro]

It starts, it just turns over for 30 secs. Before it starts, then stalls. I start it again, another 30 secs. Then starts. Don't know how far, because I did a complete revolution on the cam to make sure all slack is out. Also had to clip the light to the arm on the points to get the light to work properly, because when I cliped it on the coil, the light was always on, and only got brighter when the points opened.
Tom

[marc hildebrant]

With regard to the Les Andrews method... Doesn't his method give some amount of retard at TDC ? I try to set for 0 degree at TDC with the spark control all the way up.

Marc

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Tom Cavallaro

It starts, it just turns over for 30 secs. Before it starts, then stalls. I start it again, another 30 secs. Then starts. Don't know how far, because I did a complete revolution on the cam to make sure all slack is out. Also had to clip the light to the arm on the points to get the light to work properly, because when I cliped it on the coil, the light was always on, and only got brighter when the points opened.
Tom

This tells me you have a poor connection on the ground side of the coil. Probably the points contacts need to be cleaned. When the key is on and the points closed, the light should go out.

[700rpm]

I'm not sure it would start if you had the rotor aligned with the #4 contact point, but I've heard guys do this because the timing instructions say align the rotor opposite #1. This can be misinterpreted as meaning across from #1, which would be #4. It really means -and should say- aligned with #1. Could this be your problem?

[Mitch//pa]

if the light works on the point arm but not the coil you may have an issue in the circuit between the coil terminal and the points arm.
are you clipping the light on the proper side of the coil?

[tbirdtbird]

do it marco's way

http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

[Tom Cavallaro]

The only thing that is a change was instead of the light coming on three clicks down, I now have it set to come on at the first click down. I'm thinking I'm right on the money, but according to les Andrews I'm too retarded at three clicks.
Tom how do I correct this ground at the coil....just clean the points????

[Tom Wesenberg]

I haven't read Les Andrews' way of timing, but it sounds like he has you connect the timing light to a power source and the coil terminal that goes to the points. In other words you can connect it across the two coil terminals, then when the points open the light will go out. Just as the points open is when the spark occurs. If the points are dirty, so they don't give a good ground, then the light will be dim or off, depending on how dirty the points contacts are.

If Les has you connect the light to the points terminal on the coil and to a good engine ground, then the light will be off with the points closed, and come on just as they open. Either way if the light doesn't act as I just described, then you have a bad connection in the wire from the coil to the switch and points, or you have a bad ignition switch or dirty points. Or the distributor doesn't have a good ground. You can use a jumper wire from the condenser strap to a good engine ground, if in doubt.

In most cases if the car ran when parked, but now doesn't start when cranking normally, then the points are probably dirty. Points files are cheap and come in handy.

[Tom Cavallaro]

Thank you Tom, I'll look into everything again. The so called timing light is just a 3cp lamp with wires soldered to it. The ground I used for the lamp was the bracket that holds the hood up. The right side of the coil is how he shows to place it. So I just moved the wire from the coil to the point arm. When I first put the points in, I polished them the same way I did the contacts in the train relays, and that was four years ago, so they may need it again....lol

[Mitch//pa]

you can just use a cheap 2.00 12volt testlight also..
one thing to watch is sometimes the coil is wired backwards or on some the plus//neg on the coil is reversed....

[Tom Cavallaro]

I have to laugh, I was disscribing what was going on assuming everyone had read Les Andrews book. Thanks for all getting back to me. I will check the polarity of the coil, but I'm thinking all is good there.
Tom

[tbirdtbird]

Les is not necessarily the be all and end all source. Marco has posted what is to me the best explanation of how to do it for most of the owners out there. And points may def. need to be filed more than once every 4 yrs, especially if they sit unused....they will oxidize and become erratic

[Tom Cavallaro]

Thank you, I will be more vigilant. I must have done good to last four years!

[armchair67]

I have to admit to timing mine with number 4 , when I did my first time up this summer as a first time A owner , thanks to the rather unclear instructions in the book! I was super frustrated with the results to say the least. Thanks to the barn, someone pointed me in the right direction and she's been running like a top ever since.

[Purdy Swoft]

The timing instructions that I've seen are very confusing to the unknowing. One of the highly regarded timing instruction states that the sweet spot that the tip of the rotor must point at is only good to get you home. Many that try to follow this one keep trying to get the points to be just ready to open and end up moving the points cam. Moving the points cam off the sweet spot gets the distributor out of time . The points can be adjusted at anytime without loosening and moving the points cam. Ford specs for points gap is anywhere from .018 to .022 . Increasing points gap causes the points to open quicker and advances timing. decreasing points gap causes the points to open later and retards timing . The other popular timing instruction says that the rotor tip should point opposite the number one contact in the distributor. This causes some to think that the rotor tip should point at the number 4 contact in the distributor cap and the timing ends up 180 degrees out of time . Neither timing instruction goes in to any real detail about rotational backlash in the distributor shaft and which direction that the backlash must be in when the points cam is tightened. Actually points gap isn't that great of a cause for the model A timing being that far off , as long as the gap is within Ford specs. The three most important things about model A timing is where the rotor tip points , direction of backlash after the points cam is tightened and that the upper plate has full swing within the window in the rear of the distributor cap. Full swing meaning that the lever on the breaker moves all the way to the right side of the window for retard and all the way to the left of the window in the cap for advance.

I don't set my timing by the points. When the timing pin drops in the dimple of the timing gear, I adjust the points cam so that the trailing tip of the rotor points at the number one contact in the distributor cap. When the cam screw is tightened , there must be no clockwise rotation in the distributor shaft. There is always some rotational backlash in the distributor shaft, sometimes as much as 1/2 inch . In other words, all rotational backlash must be in the counter clockwise direction , where it will have no effect on timing. The reason being is that when the engine runs, the distributor shaft turns in the counter clockwise direction . If clockwise backlash remains, the engine will have to turn to catch up the backlash before the distributor shaft can turn. When the engine must turn before the distributor shaft begins to turn , this causes the timing to be retarded to what ever amount of backlash that had to be caught up before the distributor shaft could turn. This is why direction of backlash is so important. If there is 1/2 inch of backlash in the clockwise direction after the cam screw is tightened, the timing will be so retarded that the engine probably will not even run. If it does run it will be very weak and the exhaust manifold will get red hot. As for points gap, I don't bother with retarding the spark lever. I turn the engine untill the rubbing block on the points is on the highest point on the cam lobe, I don't mess with the cam screw . I loosen the lock screw on the points block and turn the adjustable point untill the gap opens to .022 and tighten the lock screw on the points block. Twenty two thousants is maximum gap acording to Ford specs and advances the timing to the max before there is danger of starter kick back. For me this gives quickest throttle response and gives the most time before the rubbing block on the points wears to the point that the points will have to be readjusted. When the points gap closes to less than .018 it will be time to readjust the points or you will begin to lose power and the exhaust manifold will begin to over heat . Truth be known, the model A will run good as long as points gap is within Ford specs of .018 to .022. Some prefer a more conservative gap of .020. The highly respected method is when the timing is on the mark with the spark lever fully retarded that the points should be just ready to open. This can be correctly arrived at by points gap adjustment. I don't feel that it is worth the trouble and feel that it causes the confusion that ends up with the timing being off. There is only about .004 thousants leway in points adjustment within specs, that minor amount will change constantly as the engine runs and the points block wears . Cam lube will decrease wear and the length before points adjustments will be necessary. I don't believe that the small amount that the gap will fluctuate will be that noticable untill the gap closes to less than .018 .

[marc hildebrant]

I find the Marco\Ford method very simple and easy to do. The use of a light to show when the point open is exact.

Marc

[tbirdtbird]

Purdy, agree. most Model As that find their way to this shop are timed late (meaning retarded). a late motor runs hot and runs terrible giving almost no power; all the burn is being shoved out the pipe, and not doing any work. A good ear will tell you a late motor......it is louder than it should be. Maybe you think that is cool that your motor sounds louder and more throaty....but you have lost it at that point.

On a more modern car where you move the entire dizzy to time it, Miles and I always have a contest to see how close we can get it by ear before we throw the timing light on there...and we are never more than 2 degrees off. There are others on here who can do this as well, such as Pete, Purdy, etc

we have corrected beaucoup overheating problems on antique and more modern cars just by correcting the timing. Google 'flame front propagation' if you really wanna have an understanding of what you are doing, else you are just loosening and tightening mystical screws and thing-a-ma-bobs

[tbirdtbird]

Purdy, it seems to me that once you have proper points gap and timing, assuming that it indeed is correct, that you should never again have to fiddle with the timing. Just re-gap the points as needed once the points block wears. Wanna comment on this?

Ppl on here are telling how they time and re-time and fiddle and play endlessly

[Tom Cavallaro]

Tom, points got polished. The light goes to ground on the frame and the other on the driver side of coil. Light still stays on but gets brighter when the points open. I then went to the point arm again and the light goes out till the points open. Car starts and runs great, I just can't seem to find this weak ground you speak of.
Tom

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Tom Cavallaro

Tom, points got polished. The light goes to ground on the frame and the other on the driver side of coil. Light still stays on but gets brighter when the points open. I then went to the point arm again and the light goes out till the points open. Car starts and runs great, I just can't seem to find this weak ground you speak of.
Tom

The original armored cable offered at least 3 good grounds, but the small repro cable may not offer any ground, so be sure the base of the distributor and the pocket in the head are clean and rust free. I like to smear some antiseize in the pocket, so the distributor doesn't rust in place. If in doubt about a good distributor ground, just run a wire from the condenser ground strap screw to a good engine ground.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Purdy, it seems to me that once you have proper points gap and timing, assuming that it indeed is correct, that you should never again have to fiddle with the timing. Just re-gap the points as needed once the points block wears. Wanna comment on this?

Ppl on here are telling how they time and re-time and fiddle and play endlessly

Dave, that is exactly my point !!! Unless the points cam gets moved, the distributor will remain in time. Even if the upper plate and cam must be removed for whatever reason, where the rotor tip points can be marked and returned to the exact same place with no clockwise backlash and the distributor will still be in time. The points can be set at any time without moving where the points cam is set. All that is necessary to adjust the points is to turn the engine untill the rubbing block on the points is on high cam of the points cam and make the gap adjustment.

The model A is probably the most simple engine ever to set the timing on . There is no need for a timing light or any light for that matter. Degrees and such is nothing that the common man need be concerned with on the model A distributor, the timing pin takes care of that. When I need to reset the timing ,I set the points where I want them first . I then turn the engine untill the timing pin drops in place and adjust the distributor cam so that the trailing edge of the rotor tip points at the number one contact in the distributor cap and make real sure that there is no clockwise rotation in the distributor shaft after I tighten the cam screw. Nothing could be simplier. I could teach my 11 year old grand daughter how to set the timing on a model A easier than . I already know what I want the points set on to begin with , as I detailed in my previous post. I don't have any need to go through the thing with the spark lever. To make it simple for those that think that the retarded spark deal is necessary, they could set the distributor timing as I have explained, then retard the spark and see if the points were just ready to open. If the points were not ready to open, they could simply open or close the points adjustment to suit them without even touching the cam screw. Its a no brainer and couldn't be easier .There is no excuse for bad timing on the model A .

The only time that a properly timed distributor will get out of time is if the points cam is moved and the engine is turned . Its really as simple as that . The only reason that I keep repeating timing and brake setup explainations is to help people that really don't understand these things. Timing and brake setup is the two main things that people have problems with and don't understand. I have nothing to proove or nothing to gain. There is no need in making simple proceedures too high tech and difficult for the common man. I can't take it with me so my info is free .

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Cavallaro

Tom, points got polished. The light goes to ground on the frame and the other on the driver side of coil. Light still stays on but gets brighter when the points open. I then went to the point arm again and the light goes out till the points open. Car starts and runs great, I just can't seem to find this weak ground you speak of.
Tom

these results are indicative if your checking the primary distributor feed... are you sure that it is the proper side of the coil? did you try doing the test on the other pole. its usually the red wire pass side

[OL JENNY]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Purdy, thank you for your explanation. Even for those of us who have been driving for awhile, your explanation brings home a simple and efficient way to not only time our Model A's, but an easier way of understanding. I also want to commend you for consistently taking your time to repeatedly explain issues WITHOUT

[OL JENNY]

WHOOPS---I hit the wrong key
continuing, I want to commend Purdy for repeatedly explaining issues WITHOUT ever making anyone feel stupid. Purdy and others on this forum are special with being patient and courteous. Thanks

[Purdy Swoft]

Thanks Jenny, My main intent was to explain how simple the timing process can be . A lot of people really do have problems with this procedure. Sometimes I get carried away and make careless statements when I am in a bad mood. I went back and edited a few comments out of my posts on this thread . I really didn't mean to make anybody feel stupid . Sorry if my comments offended anyone.

Thanks again, your kind words made me rethink some of my brash words.

[tbirdtbird]

its all good, man