Dan Price Porous castings Bad bad bad

[lazlobassett]

Well, I hate to write this but folks should know. I bought a B motor with a cragar OHC head that has a Dan Price Side cover, really cool finned aluminium. Nice, right? Well it is a porous casting a pisses oil all over when things warm up a bit. I called Dan, not always the affable guy. He said yeah they are all like that. i asked what do we do with this? He said he could send me another but it would leak too. then he said he had more cast by a different place but I'd have to wait a month or so until he machnied the raw castings. i said no problem, send me a casting and I'll machine it, no worries. he said sure. Then I asked if he had head gaskets for a cragar head, yes, they are 155.00.

I emailed him my info, said the gasket wasn't in the budget right now. he replied that since I wasn't going to buy the gasket, he wouldn't send me a new cover.

I think that stinks.

Be careful. He has some really nice parts and I have a bunch of them on my B but I'll be damned if I'll ever have another.

Learning is expensive.

Matt Picaro
Cream Ridge, NJ
__________________

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

You might try painting the inside of the side cover with Glyptol. It is a motor winding product but has been used by racers for years to seal porosity and also facilitate oil drain back to the pan more quickly so it doesn't stay up in the heads and starve the lower end at high speed.

I was talking to Dan Price on the phone several years ago and had checkbook in hand to purchase his "Improved Cragar head" until he called me a Bozo for asking some questions I felt were pertinent to the head before I shelled out the money.

Richard
Anaheim CA

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by lazlobassett

Well, I hate to write this but folks should know. I bought a B motor with a cragar OHC head that has a Dan Price Side cover, really cool finned aluminium.
Matt Picaro
Cream Ridge, NJ
__________________

Are you referring to a Cragar OHV or DOHC engine?
Did Cragar ever make an OHC head/engine?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Matt, I have known Dan personally for many years through my Model A/B racing endeavors and I must tell you that I have always found him to be a great craftsman and very fair. Your comment about him not always being affable is likely a fair statement as during our initial friendship when I was racing against him and asking questions, I felt the same way however I have found he will give you the shirt off his back as long as he feels like you aren't wasting his time. I will also tell you that I have been out to dinner with him or standing beside of him when folks have walked up asking for advice and then start arguing with what he is telling them. When that happens, he is "done". It may be innocent on that person's part but when he has had enough, then that's it. I see no problem in that as it seems that his line of work generally attracts "wanna-bes" who are unwilling to put forth the time & dedication to learn, ...or earn speed secrets on their own. He will also be quick to tell someone that his products are not for everyone ...and as such, he really doesn't care whether he sells to everyone who inquires about them either. For those of us who have his products, they speak for themselves.

When I survey the entire scenario you described above, it appears you purchased an engine that had a used cover on it that he really does not know the history on. He was forthcoming that his covers, (like many other brands of covers) did/do leak oil, ...which is an accurate statement. Not knowing you from Adam, he suggests that he will send you another one however it would take a month or so until he can schedule it to machine it. While you say "No Problem", evidently the perception was different because you asked him to send you one that YOU would machine yourself. Just because I know Dan, I can see a red flag going up in Dan's mind over that, ...and justifyably so simply because he has no idea whether you are capable of properly finishing something that has his name on it where others might judge his product by your abilities.


Next y'all discuss the headgaskets, which that is what they cost. They are a premium piece that are custom made for him. Nothing Dan has is cheap, ...both in quality and/or in pricing. Again, Dan is sensative about that and I can see where the perception would be that you crossed that line in his view when you told him you were unable to spend $155 on some parts.


My point in all of this is Dan makes banger race parts which in racing, there is no warranty. In your instance, you apparently did not purchase the item from him yet he was willing to make at least some concessions for you, -which however appears were unacceptable in your view. Now, you have chosen to come here to a public forum that is supposed to be catering only to the topics of Model-A Restoration (-which your side-plate definitely is not) where you feel compelled to retaliate against this man by 'blasting' him publicly in hopes it will somehow hurt him or his reputation in some manner. Maybe I am from the old-skool in situations like this but in my views, such behavior is inappropriate and no one wins in something treated like this.





One closing comment to hopefully put a positive spin on this is mess. Like others suggested above, did you consider taking your cover off and sealing it yourself? This is what I have done with several of mine and they work fine. Clean the casting well with Brake Cleaner first followed by Wax & Grease Remover. Applying light heat generally opens the pores to help in removing oil from down in the pores. Then apply a couple coats of an insulator paint such as Glyptal which is used in many racing engine applications to control oil just as you have described. Places like Jegs, Summit, Eastwood, etc. all sell it and it will likely cure your problem. Since you mentioned you have machining capabilities, maybe you can check the plate to make sure the gasket surfaces are true & flat since you may not know what has taken place from the time Dan machined it until you purchased it.

[ctlikon0712]

I don't know Dan, and have never been exposed to him or his products, but that was well put Brent.

[RockHillWill]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Having experience both in racing and restoration, I also agree with Brents approach on this one!

[lazlobassett]

I understand the comments made and am apprecitive. I think my position is still a correct one. The cover was / is New. He was aware of whom he sold it to and was perfectly willing to send me a new cover for me to machine until I mentioned the head gasket. Then He renigged on his word. That is wrong on any level in my book and I feel obligated to recount my experiences when that happens especially in a small and expensive arena.

Thant being done, My motor has a OHV conversion head made by Miller or Cragar a long time ago.

I have sealed the plate and do plan to use it. Life goes on.

Cheers!

Matt Picaro
Cream Ridge, NJ

[denis4x4]

Noticed you posted this same rant over on the HAMB three minutes before posting here. Why?

[Mike V. Florida]

It appears to me that this is a case where it is known by those who use these types of things that the casings are porous, and those that never used these castings would never know. So if you don't know that this will happen it would be a suprise to see it happen.

Even Brent stated that "Your comment about him not always being affable is likely a fair statement as during our initial friendship.."

First impressions do mean alot.

By reading all of this my guess is that Dan did realize he was dealing with a novice that did not know that this seeping is normal and figured that the profit from the head gasket would offset some of the cost of the new casting and every one would be happy. Once the "deal" changed and no money for the gasket would be coming in, it would be a burden to Dan to continue and he decided to forget it.

To me this is a simple miscommunication between the manufacturer and a customer that did not know what others that use the product already know.

I don't know either party and I'm basing my opinion on what I have read here.

I do know that I have learned something about the covers myself.

[gz]

I have known Dan for years and he is a very knowledgable person and has always been very helpful. Suppliers like Dan who produce these esoteric products in very limited numbers are not getting rich by any means, they are really helping the hobby more than they are helping themselves. I recently needed a head gasket made for a "Brand X" car. The only custom head gasket manufacturer that would take on the project quoted me 1,500.00 for the first head gasket and 200.00 each for additional head gaskets if I purchased 20 of them.

[CarlG]

$262 per gasket -- IF you can find someone to take the other 20 off your hands!

[lazlobassett]

well, you all can accept being lied to and people going back on their word. I will not and never will, nor will I join the ranks of those who do.

As stated, he would exchange the cover with no troubles initially. NO mention of head gaskets.

AFTER mentioning Head gaskets, he said no, not unless I bought one.

I am not working at present, I do not have 155.00 to spend on a new one at this time. I do have lots of time and can machine the raw part. Hell, I could make the new part and may well do so, sand casting isn't rocket science. I have done quite a bit of it. I do understand about porousity in castings and have had problems there myself, as many of us Novices have.

He indicated that he is disappointed that they are porous. He has had them cast elsewhere to rectify the problem and wanted mine back to send to the original foundry.

I understand that the guy is a banger icon, and I half expected blind devotion from his followers just like those who voted for the change that has given me this lovely vacation.

The guy lies to me, goes back on his word, I get flamed and tagged a " novice" for not accepting and embracing flawed parts. I didn't see that one coming, novice again , right?

I guess I could at this point go through my bona fides but that is a pointless exercise with this lynch mob.

Good day, I have had my say and response and will comment no more.

[lazlobassett]

well, one more thing, the gaskets are available for 55.00 each elsewhere.

MP

[MikeK]

A bit off the original rant, but a few comments on aluminum foundry castings, something I made for almost 30 years-

Most of what you see sand cast is either alloy 356 or 319, both Al/Si alloys. Aluminum has an extreme affinity for hydrogen gas. It goes into solution during the melt, then loses it during solidification. Efforts of varying degrees degas or remove some of the hydrogen before pouring. How much and to what limits is determined by customer spec, part function, and what the customer will accept. Removing all the hydrogen is not necessarily a good thing, it creates it's own problems with excessive shrink at final solidification points and hot tears. Add to that the added amortization cost of vacuum induction melting to produce near zero hydrogen castings, and customers say eek: I can get it done for half that.

Let me give you a bit of porosity analogy you can visualize-
Fill an ice cube tray with clear tap water. Air is dissolved in it, just like hydrogen in molten aluminum. Freeze it. You may get ice with visible tiny bubble streaks. This would be like an Al casting with visible pinhole porosity. If you say to the foundry 'how cheap can you...', this is what you get.

You may get ice that appears white because the air came out of solution, but not large enough to be visible. THIS is the benchmark for most aluminum foundry castings. They machine or polish fairly clean with possibly a few visible pinholes. For pressure apps, they need to be vacuum impregnated with a commercial sealant purpose-selected for the app. This will add $$.

You may get clear ice if you use degassed water and carefully control directional solidification (freezing). If you spec aluminum castings like this (ask for "degassed, no micro porosity, and pressure tight to xxx psi"), the price just went up 3X. Aluminum cylinder heads for modern cars are like that, and vacuum/pressure sealed on top of it. If they weren't, combustion gasses might seap into those 100,000 mile sealed cooling systems translating to $$$ warranty claims, and even worse, bad reliability reviews that kill sales. I can assure you that this degree of casting control is not the case with any aftermarket head or other part you buy for antique engines. If it were, the vendor would be bragging about it, but all the effort would never overcome the fine price/ yes-no line.

[CarlG]

My advice to LAZLOBASSETT:
Spent the $55 "elsewhere" for the gasket.
Machine a new cover from a sheet of plate aluminum (billett?).

Then you will know who did what to who.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

My take is selling defective castings, When you know they are Defective is B. S.. When you know a Product is S$#*, how can anybody, in good conscience drop crap on someone else, with out telling them, just to recoup their Money, and get rid of a Pile of bad Judgment!!

Castings just don't come out that way, and have some one settle for that, it was just P Pour work. When you go for Cheap, you get Cheap. So if all castings come out Porous, Which is B.S. as those are called, NOW Wait FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT, Yes Boys and Girls that is right, THEY ARE CALLED REJECTS, just like in pouring Babbitt!!! Now,why change Casting Companies if they are all the same!!! WOW maybe their not all Porous! All the brown noseing buy some, won't change the facts.

Now the last thing, Price was going to send a casting, then when Matt asked about a Head Gasket, Price thinking the 155.00 Gasket price will eat up the lose for a New Casting, maybe one that has Quality, and when Matt said he couldn't afford it right now, Price would have had a Desperate Vision of Bucks comming out of his own Pocket!! NOT Hard To See!!!


I Always Marvel at the different Opinions, when they don't have a Horse in the Race, But when somebody is digging in there Pocket. OH that is Different!!!


That is my Opinion, Herm.

[FL&WVMIKE]

I think lazlobassett is in his rights in bringing out problems, encountered with vendors. We really need more of that.
It seems that he is treating his friends differently than others. If he does this, it should be exposed.
MIKE

[gz]

"$262 per gasket -- IF you can find someone to take the other 20 off your hands!"

Good point, but since there are only about 7 of these engines in existence and 4 are not likely to ever going to run again since they are in museums, the resell prospects are pretty slim!!!!! Just another bullet to bite.....

[Sparky]

Originally Posted by gz

I have known Dan for years and he is a very knowledgable person and has always been very helpful. Suppliers like Dan who produce these esoteric products in very limited numbers are not getting rich by any means, they are really helping the hobby more than they are helping themselves. I recently needed a head gasket made for a "Brand X" car. The only custom head gasket manufacturer that would take on the project quoted me 1,500.00 for the first head gasket and 200.00 each for additional head gaskets if I purchased 20 of them.

Is there something unusual about the material or design? It seems like it would be a cinch to make a gasket using a water-jet machine. I'm not a gasket expert, but I have had prototype parts made by water jet and the cost was nowhere near $1500.

[caserider]

Lazlobasset,
Thanks for posting your experiences.
J