The Ford Barn

Chris H · 04-01-2012, 09:44 PM

Today I removed the manifolds and cylinder head from the engine to see what is going on inside cylinder #3. What I have found so far appears to be only a little more carbon deposites in the #3 than inside the other cylinders. I did find a little antifreeze in cylinders #2 & #3, about maybe a tea spoon or so. I am not sure if this was inside the head when I removed it, or if it was due to a leaking head gasket. The #2 cylinder was working before I removed the head.

The carbon deposites in the cylinders could almost be rubbed off with a shop towel in all cylinders except for #3 which was slightly thicker. I was able to read the numbers stamped on top of all pistons except for #3.

I wonder if it is likely that I just have a head gasket leak between the #3 cylinder and the water jacket. The valves look good, I think. The exhaust valves are black with some carbon deposites and the intakes are almost completely clean. All valves appear to be fully seating down in the block when they close. I plan to get a bright light and have a better look at the valve seats before removing the valves.

Should a burned valve have a very obvious appearance? Anything special to look for?

I think that the valves are the more modern straight stem valve types instead of the original valve style. As far as I can tell there does not appear to be any flairing of the valve stem at the valve spring keeper.

I plan to get a better look next week.

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Chris

Tom Wesenberg · 04-02-2012, 12:32 AM

"Should a burned valve have a very obvious appearance? Anything special to look for?"

If the valve is just starting to burn it will show some streaking where the hot gas slips by. If it's very burned, it will be very obvious.

VWJoe · 04-02-2012, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

"Should a burned valve have a very obvious appearance? Anything special to look for?"

If the valve is just starting to burn it will show some streaking where the hot gas slips by. If it's very burned, it will be very obvious.

Tom.
Yes, a burned valve will be obvious. It will look like you took a cutting torch to it and metled the valve face

. If the valve is black and not distorted, it is not burned

.

Joe,,,,

Patrick L. · 04-02-2012, 08:13 AM

As Tom said, a valve just starting to burn may not show any obvious signs until its removed.. And considering the compression readings Chris is showing the valve[s] if it is burnt it is just starting to do so.. A badly burnt valve is obvious and the compression reading[or leakage test] will show that even before removal..

Chris H · 04-02-2012, 07:55 PM

I went out to have another close look today, and to be honest the valves all look good to me. The carbon deposites really don't look that bad to me. I have attached a photo, if it worked, to see what the experts can see so far.

The valves are the old style Ford valves so the valve guides must come out with the valves. How difficult are those to get out. Is a valve guide tool needed? So far they really do not look bad to me.

Thanks for the responces.

Chris

Tom Wesenberg · 04-02-2012, 11:36 PM

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From the top side I don't see anything out of order. If you need to remove the split guides you need the tool that fits under the valve head and presses against the guide to drive it down.

pyrodork · 04-03-2012, 05:23 AM

fyi, i got my stuck valve free with some maneuvering and light tapping. getting good compression with finger tests. thanks!

Patrick L. · 04-03-2012, 07:18 AM

There doesn't appear to be anything obvious from the picture,but, the picture doesn't show much.. #3 exhaust looks a little funny but that could just be the picture.. Try to open the valves as far as they will go and try to take a good look at the faces and seats, they may have to come out though to really look at them..

Chris H · 04-13-2012, 09:00 PM

It has been a while since I posted last. Since my last posting I have pulled all the valves from the engine and looked at the valves and seats and all the valves and seats look very good. The only issue was one broken valve guide, on a cylinder that was not giving me any problems. The broken guide must have been installed wrong to begin with, but appears not to have been causing any issues.

I am going to have the valves ground anyway, since I have them out. I am thinking now that the problem must have been a leaking head gasket. I am going to see about removing the cam shaft and valve lifters and replace the lifters with adjustable lifters. Maybe a new timing gear as well. The distributor bearings had been running dry for quite a while, and there is a little play in the distributor shaft, so new bearings for that as well. I have not seen any other severe issues.

Will see what the bottom side looks and feels like this week end.

Chris

Chris H · 05-28-2012, 04:02 PM

Well, more than a month has passed since I last posted anything regarding my "sticking valve". As it has turned out the valve was fine and not sticking. I have come to the conclusion that the problem was a blown head gasket.

Since the last posting, I have had the valves ground, the head decked, rebuilt the distributor, oil pump, and purchased a repop original style exhaust manifold. Today I finally got it all back together again. Started right up, just like it always has, and ran it for 15 minutes as instructed with the head gasket. Will retorque the head nuts later this week.

One issue that I have run into, it that when I went to retorque the manifold nuts after running, as instructed with the manifold, I broke off one of the studs (all new studs), and I had not even reached the recommended torque (45 ft-lbs) yet.

To make a long story short, I removed the manifolds, removed the broken stud, and reassembled everything. Now I am a little gun shy regarding trying to torque the nuts so tight. I have them tight now, about 35 ft-lbs, but am reluctant to tighten any more. The nuts do not feel like they are getting real tight, I assume that there is a lot of give in the copper/asbestos gasket. Any ideas? I really don't want to break another stud, I think I was lucky getting it out this time and don't want to push my luck.

Other than the little issue above the engine sounds great, but will do a compression check next week to see if everything is OK. Thanks for all the good advice.

Chris H

CarlG · 05-28-2012, 09:13 PM

Nevermind what "the book says", the manifold studs need only to be tight enough to keep them from leaking. 45 will usually break something, usually one of the manifold flanges. Then you are in for a real treat.

columbiA · 05-28-2012, 11:27 PM

Just get the manifold nuts good & snug with an 8" ratchet &you will be fine.I cringe when guys use a torque wrench for just about everything on an A. I use a T W on the cyl head & common sense on every thing else.Of course being a mechanic all my working life,you develop a feel for torque on the various bolts etc.

Patrick L. · 05-29-2012, 10:27 AM

Good and snug [30-35#] is plenty.. If you're going to break something, I'm glad it was just a stud rather than a manifold ear.. That said,, all torque wrenches are not created equal and I've seen them not used correctly..

04-01-2012, 09:44 PM	#41
Chris H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wood River, IL Posts: 119	Re: Sticking Valve Today I removed the manifolds and cylinder head from the engine to see what is going on inside cylinder #3. What I have found so far appears to be only a little more carbon deposites in the #3 than inside the other cylinders. I did find a little antifreeze in cylinders #2 & #3, about maybe a tea spoon or so. I am not sure if this was inside the head when I removed it, or if it was due to a leaking head gasket. The #2 cylinder was working before I removed the head. The carbon deposites in the cylinders could almost be rubbed off with a shop towel in all cylinders except for #3 which was slightly thicker. I was able to read the numbers stamped on top of all pistons except for #3. I wonder if it is likely that I just have a head gasket leak between the #3 cylinder and the water jacket. The valves look good, I think. The exhaust valves are black with some carbon deposites and the intakes are almost completely clean. All valves appear to be fully seating down in the block when they close. I plan to get a bright light and have a better look at the valve seats before removing the valves. Should a burned valve have a very obvious appearance? Anything special to look for? I think that the valves are the more modern straight stem valve types instead of the original valve style. As far as I can tell there does not appear to be any flairing of the valve stem at the valve spring keeper. I plan to get a better look next week. Thanks for all the help and advice. Chris

04-02-2012, 12:32 AM	#42
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Sticking Valve "Should a burned valve have a very obvious appearance? Anything special to look for?" If the valve is just starting to burn it will show some streaking where the hot gas slips by. If it's very burned, it will be very obvious.

04-02-2012, 08:13 AM	#44
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Sticking Valve As Tom said, a valve just starting to burn may not show any obvious signs until its removed.. And considering the compression readings Chris is showing the valve[s] if it is burnt it is just starting to do so.. A badly burnt valve is obvious and the compression reading[or leakage test] will show that even before removal..

04-02-2012, 11:36 PM	#46
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Sticking Valve Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) From the top side I don't see anything out of order. If you need to remove the split guides you need the tool that fits under the valve head and presses against the guide to drive it down.

04-03-2012, 05:23 AM	#47
pyrodork Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 65	Re: Sticking Valve fyi, i got my stuck valve free with some maneuvering and light tapping. getting good compression with finger tests. thanks! __________________ Current Classics: 1930 Ford Model A Tudor 1937 Plymouth P4 Deluxe 2-door touring sedan 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 Past Classics: Early '30 Ford Model AA 1948 Dodge Deluxe 4-door sedan 1951 Studebaker Champion 2-door sedan 1988 Ford E-350XL Ambulance

04-03-2012, 07:18 AM	#48
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Sticking Valve There doesn't appear to be anything obvious from the picture,but, the picture doesn't show much.. #3 exhaust looks a little funny but that could just be the picture.. Try to open the valves as far as they will go and try to take a good look at the faces and seats, they may have to come out though to really look at them..

04-13-2012, 09:00 PM	#49
Chris H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wood River, IL Posts: 119	Re: Sticking Valve It has been a while since I posted last. Since my last posting I have pulled all the valves from the engine and looked at the valves and seats and all the valves and seats look very good. The only issue was one broken valve guide, on a cylinder that was not giving me any problems. The broken guide must have been installed wrong to begin with, but appears not to have been causing any issues. I am going to have the valves ground anyway, since I have them out. I am thinking now that the problem must have been a leaking head gasket. I am going to see about removing the cam shaft and valve lifters and replace the lifters with adjustable lifters. Maybe a new timing gear as well. The distributor bearings had been running dry for quite a while, and there is a little play in the distributor shaft, so new bearings for that as well. I have not seen any other severe issues. Will see what the bottom side looks and feels like this week end. Chris

05-28-2012, 04:02 PM	#50
Chris H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wood River, IL Posts: 119	Re: Sticking Valve Well, more than a month has passed since I last posted anything regarding my "sticking valve". As it has turned out the valve was fine and not sticking. I have come to the conclusion that the problem was a blown head gasket. Since the last posting, I have had the valves ground, the head decked, rebuilt the distributor, oil pump, and purchased a repop original style exhaust manifold. Today I finally got it all back together again. Started right up, just like it always has, and ran it for 15 minutes as instructed with the head gasket. Will retorque the head nuts later this week. One issue that I have run into, it that when I went to retorque the manifold nuts after running, as instructed with the manifold, I broke off one of the studs (all new studs), and I had not even reached the recommended torque (45 ft-lbs) yet. To make a long story short, I removed the manifolds, removed the broken stud, and reassembled everything. Now I am a little gun shy regarding trying to torque the nuts so tight. I have them tight now, about 35 ft-lbs, but am reluctant to tighten any more. The nuts do not feel like they are getting real tight, I assume that there is a lot of give in the copper/asbestos gasket. Any ideas? I really don't want to break another stud, I think I was lucky getting it out this time and don't want to push my luck. Other than the little issue above the engine sounds great, but will do a compression check next week to see if everything is OK. Thanks for all the good advice. Chris H

05-28-2012, 09:13 PM	#51
CarlG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 9,212	Re: Sticking Valve Nevermind what "the book says", the manifold studs need only to be tight enough to keep them from leaking. 45 will usually break something, usually one of the manifold flanges. Then you are in for a real treat.

05-28-2012, 11:27 PM	#52
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Sticking Valve Just get the manifold nuts good & snug with an 8" ratchet &you will be fine.I cringe when guys use a torque wrench for just about everything on an A. I use a T W on the cyl head & common sense on every thing else.Of course being a mechanic all my working life,you develop a feel for torque on the various bolts etc.

05-29-2012, 10:27 AM	#53
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Sticking Valve Good and snug [30-35#] is plenty.. If you're going to break something, I'm glad it was just a stud rather than a manifold ear.. That said,, all torque wrenches are not created equal and I've seen them not used correctly..