King Pin differences

[Fordors]

There is a difference between reaming slowly, via hand power, and reaming with a motor driven reamer. The manufacturers used a powered reamer for efficiency and the quality of the job. With the right reamer, at the right RPM, the proper coolant and the spindle in a fixtured set-up in a drill press I'm sure I could do a great job, but we do not have that luxury with the hand ream. I'll be sticking with the honed fit.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Fordors

There is a difference between honing slowly, via hand power, and honing with a motor driven reamer. The manufacturers used a powered reamer for efficiency and the quality of the job. With the right reamer, at the right RPM, the proper coolant and the spindle in a fixtured set-up in a drill press I'm sure I could do a great job, but we do not have that luxury with the hand ream. I'll be sticking with the honed fit.

I'm not saying that a precision hone won't do an excellent job but,
With a precision hand reamer and the understanding of how to use it you can do an excellent job yourself and have the satisfaction of doing your own work as opposed to hiring it done.
A kingpin reamer is a lot cheaper than a precision hone.
Also I'm sure you know that a"kingpin reamer" is long enough to engage both bushings at the same time for alignment purposes so a fixture is not needed.
I'm not looking for an argument but I've done both for quite a few years and each has its place
Bill

[sturgis 39]

I have found that the NAPA stores and other national parts dealers are not competitive with specialty stores like Berts and Snyders. A fuel pump for an old Chevy 216 was over $100 at a local chain store. The same pump at Speedway was less than $50. The local parts store wanted over a $100 for a six volt coil and they are cheaper Berts. The local non chain supply stores have see through gas filters for less than two dollars and the Napa store wants about $4.

The auto parts stores have different price lists and usually charge me full retail prices plus. They charge local repair shops less than full retail. O Rielly Stores seem to be more competitive than other national parts stores.

The parts stores wait for 30 days or more for payment from repair shops and I pay cash. A person would think that a cash customer would get a better price.

I think a reamer from Enco would be less expensive than one from a Model "A" store. I would try to buy one from a machine tool supplier but I do not know the size and the Ford catalogs do not tell you the size of their reamers. I was told that all of the king pins are the same size for all Ford cars that have straight axles. A friend had an adjustable reamer that we used on my kingpins. I think we honed them after the reamer operation was completed. They turned out great.

I belong to the Black Hills Model "T" club. I really enjoy the club. There are about seven machinist that belong to the club. They talk in thousands and 10 thousand of an inch and I always ask how many sixteenths that would be. There are three members that pour babbit bearings. They are kind of laid back and everybody helps everybody else. There is a lot of talent that will be gone someday.

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Seems to me like it's half of one and six dozen of another. I reamed my kingpins 6 years and 14000 miles ago. They're still just as tight as when I first did it. You just have to have a good reamer and use it properly and you won't have any problem. Adjustable reamers are iffy at best. Worn reamers are better but still leave a lot to be desired. Odd number fluted reamers can leave an odd number of highs and lows as can a reamer with an even number of flutes. Reamers are not designed to cut highs and lows. However when used improperly it can happen and does. A lot. If you want to do it your self learn how to do it right. If your going to do it in a machine, make sure the spindle bearings are good. Dial what your going to ream in to avoid trying to force the reamer and causing it to cut oversize or out of round. Use clean cutting oil. If you can find a spiral fluted reamer use it. If you have any doubts take it to a shop and get it honed. A loose front end flopping and wandering down the road is no fun at all (as you probably all ready know if your kingpins are worn). A reamer is designed to cut one size. The tolerance is built into the tool for the cutter grinder and if he does his job everything should work in your favor. Hones can be somewhat variable depending on the operator and his ability to hold tolerance. And I've seen them cut highs and lows too. Especially with a sunnen hone. They usually have a three "fluted" out of round condition that almost looks like an airplane propellor when checked on an air table with electronic indicator and graphing software. And the weird thing is this propellor effect can't be found with normal gaging such as bore or air gages. So to check for out of round you need an air table with the electronic indicator and that won't give size it only gives roundness. So then you still need to use a bore or air gage. (Thank God for computers) So the bottom line is "You make the choice". You can't go wrong unless you really don't have any idea what your doing and if that's the case you better take it to a shop and let them decide what the best way is. Good luck.

[William Kelchner]

How would I check to condition of my king pins? Thanks

[VWJoe]

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Originally Posted by William Kelchner

How would I check to condition of my king pins? Thanks

Bill, lift the front of the car up with a floor jack. Grab the wheel @ 12:00 o'clock and 6:00 o'clock and shake the wheel in & out to detect play in either the king pin bushings or the axle itself. Do this before greasing the bushings as grease will temporaly take the play out of worn bushing.

Joe,,,

[William Kelchner]

Thanks VW - I'll try that tonight after I get home. You must be up early getting your 10 mile run in....

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

Kevin, You say you should never ream the bushings,Thats how these cars were built at the factories and they lasted a long time when lubricated properly and the factory manuals specify reaming when replacing bushings.
Are the engineers that built these cars wrong?
Bill

Yes, that's why we do it differently in today's world. Engineers of today have found ways of doing all these processes with more precision. As for just doing one journal with the crank scraper, do you really think they were used just for that? Many cranks were done complete with these tools because that was what they could afford. Removing and grinding a crank would cost maybe, 20$ but this could be done for 5$ so guess what the farmer or poor worker did where money was scarce.

[RonC]

Honing king pins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0-vPhRuCo

[RonC]

All about reamers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEltyxuYUeU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrOej...feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV3T3...feature=relmfu

[Fordors]

Yes bbrocksr I do know of the pilot on the k/p bushing reamer, but that wasn't why I mentioned a fixture. In a manufacturing situation most assuredly an operator loaded a fixture and the reamer sized both holes, using a reamer with no pilot. The fixture would be used to insure the alignment, making a pilot unnecessary and the reamer would be long enough to do the bushings together. Having worked for GM BITD I know that everything was "time studied" and to the General even fractions of a second counted. My point is that a proper reamed hole done under power will be superior to anything one can do on the bench. And pin honing, done by a competent operator, will be even better in my estimation.

[jan bogert]

right now i have my king pins out on my '31 coupe. needed bushings. play in them. i took mine to my local machine shop. $35.00 a spindle. press out old install new bushings, and hone with long hone top and bottom together. got the kit from Snyders. also got the tie-rod kit. i thought if one is bad so's the other or it will be soon. JAN.

[sturgis 39]

The bushings are about two bucks each. They are cheap and if you make a mistake you would not be out of a lot of money. I think I would do my own and order a couple of extra in case something went wrong. We never had trouble in high school with replacing the bushings using hand tools. The biggest thing was remembering lining up the grease hole. I think that you are making a simple job really hard.

[wrndln]

I think this string is getting a little of silly. I still don't think there is a big difference between honing and reaming. I know I will get a lot of flack from the honing crew, but you know we are working on one of the cheapest cars made in the day. I suspect none but the most finicky person could ever tell the difference once the work is done, between honing and reaming (and maybe not even them). Like my grandmother used to say, "To each his own as the old lady kissed the cow".
Rusty Nelson

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

Kevin, You say you should never ream the bushings,Thats how these cars were built at the factories and they lasted a long time when lubricated properly and the factory manuals specify reaming when replacing bushings.
Are the engineers that built these cars wrong?
Bill

Which factory manuals and where did you read they used reamers?

I am not saying they did not use the reamer in the factory. Early manuals would have you use a reamer because the Sunnen hone type device was not very common.

As mentioned a reamer can do the job. The factory is likely to have used a reamer on a fancy machine that reamed and burnished to size. Every thing was held tight and the reamer was not allowed to move so it could not chatter. As pointed out the right type of reamer would do a very good job, but they are more expensive. The factory could have also had a precision cutter and a jig and then burnished them. I do not know what they have done so if someone has the factory info please tell me where I can read about it too.

SO comparing what the factory did to what we can do in our shops is not a very good comparison.

We can get down to some very special distinctions in the various reamers. Number of flutes, shape of flutes, how much the various shapes will be affected by the grease groove and such. We would get way off the track.

For this discussion we need to focus on what would be accessible to the general population. Certain realities.

The average guy has two choices.

A reamer or machinist with a (hopefully) precision tool.

The reamers come in all sorts of designs. If you get a used one from a flea market who know what you are really getting. Straight flutes and enough lead to hopefully get the pair of bushings lined up. I have several of those laying around. Brattton's sells a spiral fluted unit for only $139 for 2012. It is custom made in Canada. I have not heard how good it works.

Now you can also spend about $40 to pay an experienced guy to hone the bushings to size. I do not know about costs my brother has two Sunnen hones so I just hand them to him. They should be round and inline when done. Can he screw them up, sure. The reamer in in-experinced hands can mess up a lot too.

So for the average guy the best value is paying someone with a hone. Those with access to a reamer go ahead and use it. In either case, check your work.

Short of knowing for sure the type of reamer and the experience of the guy doing the reaming, I would always have to push someone to have their bushings honed.