New Water Pump with Face Seal

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Thank you for all the comments and suggestions on the "I need a project" thread.

I considered every suggestion and decided to redesign something that every Model A owner needs. I chose to redesign the late production Model A water pump that has the large hole in the housing below the packing nut. This new water pump uses a carbon/ceramic face seal like modern water pumps. We will not be making the early water pump, which has the round hole in the housing below the packing nut, because it is only needed for judging early cars.

Ford first used face seals in the 1932 V-8 water pump, and every new Ford water pump design since has used a face seal. Ford even supplied a Model A water pump at the parts counter that used a face seal in the late 1930s.

I obtained copies of the engineering drawings for the Model A water pump from the Ford archives. These drawings are good for documenting machined surfaces, but the exterior of the pump was not well documented. The exterior of the pump was designed by pattern makers who determined draft, many radii, and the location of parting lines for both the core and the exterior.

My first challenge was to find an original Ford water pump housing to base our new pump design on. Several manufacturers made aftermarket water pumps for Model A Fords. I looked at many water pumps and couldn't tell if any were original Model A production parts or after-market parts.

During Model A production, Ford supported it's Dealerships by using oddball nut sizes like 19/32 and 21/32, and oddball bolt lengths that ended in a 1/16 inch which made owners have their cars serviced by dealers.

After Model A production ended and during the depression, Ford did things to support their Dealers and encourage owners to take their cars to a Ford Dealership for repairs or replacement parts. Ford described parts not made by Ford as "GYP" parts and added visible part numbers or the Ford script to many genuine Ford parts. These added part numbers and script assured the customer that he was getting genuine Ford parts, and prevented the Ford dealer from selling "GYP" parts.

For an original-looking production housing for our new water pump, I chose to use an after production genuine Ford water pump housing that had the added part number, and I ground the part number off to make it look like a production water pump.

The new water pump uses 3 deep groove ball bearings that are sealed for life, and the same face seal that is used in Ford 2.3 (140), 2.5 (153), 3.0 (183), 3.3 (200), 3.8 (231), 4.1 (250), 4.2 (255), 5.0(302), 5.8 (351), 6.6 (400), and 7.5 (460) engines. This face seal is also used in American Motors, General Motors, and Chrysler water pumps.

The bushing, packing nut, and grease fittings are decorative to make the new water pump appear as an original water pump, but they are non-functional.

John Lampl delivered a printed plastic water pump, SolidWorks, and STEP files to a factory in China specializing in automotive pumps and met with their management and engineers to discuss the new water pump. The factory requested a minor change, which has been incorporated into the design, and John is now in China for a final design review of the minor change The next step will be to receive a water pump for our approval before production.

Our new water pump with a face seal will be priced to be competitive with water pumps using packings and radial lip seals.

[Hotrodfil]

I've had a couple of A water pumps with the face seals - I wondered who'd made them.

[nkaminar]

Terry, Thank you again for your valuable contribution to the Model A community.

While in college in the 1960's, getting my Mechanical Engineering degree, I took several drafting classes. Back then it was pencils, drafting tables, triangles, and T-squares. One of our assignments was to create engineering drawings for the Model A water pump casting. The instructor handed out machined castings and we were required to make the drawings from these. I got an A from my efforts.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Hotrodfil

I've had a couple of A water pumps with the face seals - I wondered who'd made them.

You can tell these because they have the "turret" impeller rather than a vane impeller. Necked down a little bit at the front as they usually have but a bushing instead of an actual bearing. Otherwise they look very much as the previous packed pump.

Ebay pix below (won't last)



Sometimes these get rebuilt by time and enthusiasm and converted over to a vane impeller - usually by boring out the seal area and pressing in the usual brass packing gland and spline box. Maybe boring not required? The casting MAY take on the brass without modification. I've seen a V8 pump time period "rebuild kit" on Ebay (hey, look at that - so THATS where Ford went with the Model A Pump) and the inner bearing/seal might just slip in.

If so, it would be consistent with the way Henry Ford "design progressed." Use as much of what you already make in new production.

I have one of these Ford face seal pumps but as a "placekeeper." Something to show visitors or something for people to look at in the back of Avatar at shows. I don't use it since I think the earlier design is a better (stronger) design, Nose bearing advantage.

Now with Terry's pump, that box of about 20 "regular" burned out pumps that has followed me around has even LESS value at the flea market?

Maybe instead of making an "all new pump" Terry should simply produce the "face seal rebuild" kit as Ford likely did, and offer it as "alternative" to a packed gland?

Whatever. Do what makes sense...

Joe K

[Synchro909]

I have posted here in the past that I have converted Model A water pumps to ceramic seals. Usually with ball bearings at the front and in some cases, the original bronze bush at the back. They worked well which led me to consider making them as Terry has decided to do but unlike Terry, I would have shipping to the US and now, Tariffs to contend with apart from the usual American response to something "foreign made". I even looked into having the bodies made by die casting them but the setup costs were too high when those things were considered.
I wish Terry well with this "new" project. I know he will do it well.

[Benson]

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[Hotrodfil]

Originally Posted by Joe K

You can tell these because they have the "turret" impeller rather than a vane impeller. Necked down a little bit at the front as they usually have but a bushing instead of an actual bearing.

Yes - that's what the ones I have look like.