Steering column support underside of gas tank

[Jeff/Illinois]

Is it a viable job to try to solder the gas tank connection on these, with the tank still in the car? Or to do the job the right way, should it be taken out and done on the workbench?
I have a small weeping leak that really should be addressed.
Thanks.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Those are riveted to the tank with a reinforcement inside the tank. Not any good way to replace it without opening the tank. Generally what we find is the rivets have made radial fractures from the rivet holes. The tank and the reinforcing plate need to be welded up and redrilled for the new rivets. Just soldering won't seal it up from my experiences.

[rotorwrench]

Originally, Ford used a process referred to as terne plating for the whole inside of the tank to seal it. This is a lot like coating the inside with lead/tin solder. A lot depends on the condition of the joint between the bracket and the tank. They have a reinforcement plate on the inside which was all riveted together with the tank & bracket. They tend to crack after many years of use and abuse. A person can try soldering it up but it's too easy to have contamination come through to the outside during the heating process. It will have to be super clean to get it to stick. If the tank is rusty inside then a solder job on the outside may not last very long before it starts to seep again. If the tank skin is cracked then it won't last long at all.

Major work on a tank requires cutting it open on the original seem line and performing complete cleaning and repair before welding it all back together and sealing it up. It's not an easy job. It's getting harder to find good clean and serviceable tanks these days but they are out there.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Those are riveted to the tank with a reinforcement inside the tank. Not any good way to replace it without opening the tank. Generally what we find is the rivets have made radial fractures from the rivet holes. The tank and the reinforcing plate need to be welded up and redrilled for the new rivets. Just soldering won't seal it up from my experience.

BRENT

1.Do you weld up the cracks and enlarged holes in tank, bracket, re-drill rivet holes and assemble re-rivet for strength?

2.Then follow up with solder to make it leak proof?
OR do you weld up everything as the final step and forget the solder?

Just wondering.

I installed the 31 bracket to upper rail to remove stress on lower tank bracket area.

Thanks

[Jeff/Illinois]

Wow--thanks much I didn't realize all of that. It is pretty involved...A big job...

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Benson

BRENT

1.Do you weld up the cracks and enlarged holes in tank, bracket, re-drill rivet holes and assemble re-rivet for strength?
Depends on the length & quantity of the crack(s). Sometimes we TIG the crack closed including the rivet hole. Then re-drill. If there are many cracks in all directions, sometimes we just saw & remove the damaged piece and fab a new piece to weld in.

2.Then follow up with solder to make it leak proof?
OR do you weld up everything as the final step and forget the solder?
Generally speaking I don't bother soldering because unless you totally remove the bracket from the tank, there is not a good way to clean that area and then get it liberally tinned. At that point, it is the same as not soldering. We let the tank sealer cover the rivets heads.

Just wondering.

I installed the 31 bracket to upper rail to remove stress on lower tank bracket area.
IMO, if the bracket has been correctly installed, there is not a need to use the later-style auxiliary bracket in lieu of the tank bracket.

Thanks

See above in Red

[Phil Brown]

You'll most likley have to remove it just to clean it out of ALL of the fuel and fumes before going near it with any flame to solder it.
Just resoldering it and using the mount to hang the stearing column back on will leave you with a good chance of the leak comming back. If I resoldered it I would definitely get the dash rail type column hanger and use that and abandon the tank mount. Maybe space it down from the dash rail with a flat washer or two so that you get a small amount of clearance between the old tank mount and the steering column, 1/8" or so.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

You'll most likley have to remove it just to clean it out of ALL of the fuel and fumes before going near it with any flame to solder it.
Just resoldering it and using the mount to hang the stearing column back on will leave you with a good chance of the leak comming back. If I resoldered it I would definitely get the dash rail type column hanger and use that and abandon the tank mount. Maybe space it down from the dash rail with a flat washer or two so that you get a small amount of clearance between the old tank mount and the steering column, 1/8" or so.

I had drained the tank and left the cap off for 6 months or so and the gas had evaporated.

The old guy at radiator shop that repaired my tank 20 years ago said that he had done maybe a 1000 repairs.

He had an old 60's car which he kept in the back yard of the shop for just this purpose.

He started it up and stuck a rubber hose, which was attached to the tailpipe, into the tank inlet and let it idle for while so the fumes could purge my gas tank.

I stood a good ways back!

Bill said that He never had a problem doing it this way!

I am not sure there is enough Carbon Monoxide in modern car exhaust for me to try it myself!

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

You'll most likley have to remove it just to clean it out of ALL of the fuel and fumes before going near it with any flame to solder it.
Just resoldering it and using the mount to hang the stearing column back on will leave you with a good chance of the leak comming back. If I resoldered it I would definitely get the dash rail type column hanger and use that and abandon the tank mount. Maybe space it down from the dash rail with a flat washer or two so that you get a small amount of clearance between the old tank mount and the steering column, 1/8" or so.

Phil, I had gone through exactly what you have described just a year ago. After experiencing the frustration of a minor drip, drip, drip after all the effort I went through to solder and seal, I'd sealed the tank again and installed the dash mount support.
Good to go.
I believe my repairs had initially solved the issue. However, when the owner used the steering wheel as an aid to get in the car, the stress on the tank bracket didn't hold up.
Wish I'd known of those supports prior.

[nkaminar]

Argon and carbon dioxide are good gasses to use in the tank to eliminate the possibility of an explosion. Argon is available at welding supply places. Carbon dioxide can be obtained by shoving dry ice inside the tank. Carbon monoxide if flammable. That is the flame you see when you burn wood in your fireplace, among other gasses.

[rotorwrench]

I've seen more than a few model A engines run on wood gas which is the product of burning wood. Carbon monoxide is on the ragged edge between inert and combustible. It depends on how much in unburned hydrocarbon is still present in the car exhaust.

If a person welds with CO2 mix or argon, then that works fine. A friend of mine and I were in his dad's shop when he started to modify a new pickup bed mounted fuel tank. The moment he struck an arc on that tank, it blew up and hovered for a few seconds before banging back down on the floor. It was rectangular but turned into a cylinder shape real quick. It launched my friends dad and he ended up in the bathroom right behind him. Luckily, he wasn't injured anywhere but his ears rang for a day or so after. The tank had never had fuel in it but the slosh sealer was cured in there and likely left the combustible fumes & materials that caused it to blow. Ever since then, I try to fill them with water if possible. CO2 would be my next choice. For model A tanks, I use CO2. Argon is more expensive.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I sometimes just read and smile. Naturally everyone needs to err on the side of caution and follow safety precautions, but I gotta tell you (-and it may happen on the next one!), that we have never had an A tank do anything more than make one slight 'whoof' when a spark was introduced to a tank. After that, there will never explode or catch fire again during the repair process.

Our protocol is pretty simple; start by draining the fuel and remove the gas gauge, fuel cap, and the valve, ...then add a good squirt of Dawn dishwashing soap, and either fill it with water or stick the nozzle of the steam cleaner into tank to flush for about a minute. Let the water drain and use compressed air to blow the excess water out of the tank. Then use a cut-off wheel to open the tank. If all of the flammable fuel has been removed, and the vapors have been dissipated with compressed air, there isn't anything left to explode. This even applies to rust & varnish left in the bottom of the tank. If it is old dried gas, then the flammable light ends have already evaporated. If someone is still concerned, we have used starting fluid and sprayed a stream starting at the filler neck and across the floor about 5' away. Using a torch, we have lit the starting fluid and the flame traveled across the floor and up into the tank. If the tank did have some vapors, all you will get is a slight 'whoof' as those remaining vapors combust. Otherwise no poof, whoof, or anything. FWIW, if I had listened to all of the people on Fordbarn tell me never weld on a Model-A tank because of how dangerous welding on them was, I would have never, ever restored the first one. It turns out, most oof the advice I was given was from people who had never even welded on a Model-A gas tank. The were just repeating a story that they had heard from someone who had heard it from.....

[Benson]

About post 12;
My reason for MY caution was from another experience (ACTUALLY HAPPENED 15 FEET FROM ME).

Speedy was cutting the motor mounts to remove an engine from a frame with no body. After a couple cuts there was a giant explosion, right before Speedy came staggering out of cloud of dust. His comment was.

"Well looks like I cut a fuel line!"

The tank was split open and turned inside out.

[Benson]

I am not saying that I do not believe what you said.

More than a few times the customer says his car will not start.

Just to prove a point we dumped a 1/2 cup of gas from the car's tank on the concrete, tossed a lighted match on it ... gas did not even catch fire.

I wonder why engine did not start.

[rotorwrench]

Brent does have a point . Every situation is different. If the tank has combustible fumes it will ignite. If it has been setting open for years then most would agree that it is probably void of flammable fumes.

It doesn't have to be gasoline fumes. It could be from any flammable products that have gone in there for any reason and have not been washed out or steamed out before working on the tank with anything that might be an ignition source. Sealers outgas until fully cured but most folks weld before sealing.

Just think before working on any tank and proceed with caution.