2nd Gear

[mattgic]

So I finally got my '28 coupe titled, registered and legal for the road. I took it for it's first ride outside the parking lot. Just around town low speed. One thing I observered is second gear with a louder than usual whine. Also as it wound up it would push itself out of gear.
I was just wondiering if this is something others may have experienced and what should I expect.

[Joe K]

First thing I would check are the "detents" - which are located in the shifter tower. You can remove just the tower and bring it to your workbench for examination.

On the two sides of the shifter tower you'll find a threaded plug.

What can happen is gunk can get in the springs/pills/under the threaded plugs and prevent the pills from engaging the depressions in the shifter rails - i.e. won't hold in gear.

Note that "2" (intermediate) gear is push lever away from driver and forward. This means the shifter rail that may need attention is "closer" to the driver.

The actual "detent" is shared between the left and right rails and located between the rails. Undoing the plugs just gives "access" to the detent spring and plungers once the rails are removed. So you'll have to disassemble the rails from their forks, and remove them through the front holes on the shifter tower.

This is not a hard job but smaller hands help, as does having a pin punch that can fit the rivet and punch out the long rivets holding the forks to the rails. (going back together you can use a large center punch with a 60 degree cone to expand the rivet for retention.)

With the rails removed, you can undo the threaded plugs and "pour" the pill detents and springs out into your hand - and clean the entire assembly internally for re-assembly.




If on re-assembly you find operation of the shifter and detents satisfactory, then the issue is more "internal" to the transmission. I have seen 2nd sliding gears to be "worn" on the leading edges and could cause the defect that you're seeing. You may see this with the transmission top off. But check the shifter detents while things are apart. Cleaned in the detent area, there may be enough to "hold" it in gear. This you can do without pulling the engine/transmission.

Joe K

[nkaminar]

Matt, My crystal ball sees a transmission rebuild in your future.

[Joe K]

In your examination of the shifter tower/rails - check to see that the cylindrical "rails" are correct in their positions. The groove side of the rails must bear against the pill/detents and the rails CAN be put in 180 degrees "turned" - making for no detent action.

The shifter rails can be swapped left to right - there is a difference in the groove positions between left and right.

Joe K

[KenBolton]

I had the same experience with my pickup. Replaced them with a second new set and a new old stock shaft and everything was fine.

[Marshall V. Daut]

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Did you install new transmission gears or re-use ones already in the case? Had you driven the car before its restoration? Was there 2nd gear noise then? If you re-used the 2nd gear that came with the transmission, chances are it's worn and the teeth edges are rounded or pointed. That will contribute to slipping out of gear, besides worn detents in the shift tower.
Because the Model A's transmission gears are straight-cut, there will be a little "singing" in them no matter what, especially in 1st and 2nd gears. Back in the day when roads were poor and driving speeds were slower than we typically drive our Model A's today, people stayed in second gear for a long time because they often couldn't go fast enough on those bad roads to get into 3rd gear. So, 2nd gear was used for long time stretches at a time. That accelerated wear on that gear over the years. The rounded teeth resulted from harsh shifting, up and down. I would bet that if the gears are original, you'll find the 2nd gear teeth very pointed and probably rust pits on the teeth faces if moisture has taken its toll on the metal in the last 90+ years.
I agree with nkaminar - a transmission rebuild is in your future. If you replace the 2nd gear with a new one, you should spend the extra couple hundred dollars on a new cluster gear. After all, the 2nd gear teeth and the cluster gear teeth have been in contact with each other all these years. If the 2nd gear is so badly worn that it makes especially loud whining noise and jumps out of gear, it's a sure bet the cluster gear is also worn. It'd be a shame to go to all the trouble of replacing only the 2nd gear and then discover after test driving the car that the transmission still makes noise. That would be the cluster gear telling you it should have been replaced, too.
As long as you're sleuthing the problem, follow the guys' advice regarding the shift tower inspection and repair. Now would be the perfect time to eliminate one possible contributing factor in the tranny jumping out of gear. Rebuilding the shift tower won't eliminate the whining 2nd gear nuisance, but at least you'll have peace of mind that the shift tower functions properly and is not the cause of jumping out of gear.
Marshall

[rotorwrench]

Straight cut gears don't have much for thrust loads like the helical gears do but wear on gear faces, shaft splines, and shifter fork slots can allow enough room for gear movement. The shifter detents are very important in these type transmissions to help hold the gear. The ball tip on the shift lever can also wear out. Too much play may not allow a gear to properly center on the other gear during shifting.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"...but wear on gear faces, shaft splines, and shifter fork slots can allow enough room for gear movement."

rotorwrench brings up a good point. While driving long distances in 2nd gear in "olden days", even at slower speeds, it was bad habit to rest one's right hand on the gear shift knob while the left hand stayed on the steering wheel. The pressure exerted on the long shift lever pushed the shift forks against the gear grooves and caused wear on the forks and the grooves' inner portions. That in turn also led to more slop and wear on the gear shifter ball at the bottom. Depending upon how much this happened over the years will explain why some gear shift levers flop around more than others. Wear in those three critical areas will definitely cause shifter slop. And that slop will also create a tendency for 2nd gear to move and then jump out of gear.
Marshall

[Kurt in NJ]

There is a page in the service bulletins about second gear not being fully engaged and wearing a taper on the teeth causing it to pop out of gear.
It’s not hard to take shifter tower off to have a look.

[johnbuckley]

Originally Posted by mattgic

.... One thing I observed is second gear with a louder than usual whine. Also as it wound up it would push itself out of gear.
....

Been there.Done that... with exactly the same symptoms.... tried different grade oil.... no difference...rebuilt shifter tower with new rails and detents ( twice!) ... no difference... put in a "fully rebuilt transmission with new bearings " ... No difference... purchased quaility replacement bearings from reputable bearing specialist ... problem solved.

[mattgic]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. It looks like I have a(nother) project. I will try and keep you posted.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by johnbuckley

Been there.Done that... purchased quaility replacement bearings from reputable bearing specialist ... problem solved.

Were they the main ball bearings? Or the small roller bearings inside the cluster gear?
Just wondering if it was the poor quality new repo roller bearings?