221-239-255 Flathead Engine Block Identification Version 2

[38 coupe]

Germany

Flathead V8 production at the Koln plant in Cologne Germany deviated from USA practices due to politics and a war. Before WW2 the German production primarily followed USA practices, with some lag in adopting changes. One notable difference is all German V8s used a cast aluminum oil pan, probably because the stamping dies and machine were too expensive to justify for the small volume production of these engine.

Please be careful with pictures taken during World War 2, just because a truck is in German use does not indicate it was produced in Germany. All sides were quite happy to incorporate any captured usable Ford vehicle into their fleet, and did so regularly. A quick insignia paint job and the vehicle switched sides, regardless of where the vehicle or engine was produced.

Production started with the 1935-36 type engines as shown in this celebratory picture of the first engine.



At the time the Führer decided to start a world war engine production at Koln was still 21 stud engines. With a war on the government appropriated the plant and Ford lost control and contact with the German facility for the duration of the war. Some time in 1940? Koln modified their castings to make 24 stud engines, and enlarged the bore to make 239 cubic inch units. The cylinder deck on these engines is different, with the center water hole upside down keystone becoming a bit of an arrowhead shape.


At some point the Germans got fed up with the distributor low on the front of the motor and decided to do something about it. The block casting was modified so that a distributor drive could be attached at the top of the oil pump.


Here is a picture of a German engine in a military vehicle, check out that distributor access.


After the war the plant was returned to Ford. The German engines were updated with some of the 8BA features, but not all. It appears to me that the cooling improvements were adopted, but no other changes since the German motors already had a top mounted distributor. Continued use in already designed vehicles probably had something to do with this, more information would be nice.
These engine pictures show the updated cooling system evident by the 8BA style heads, but retaining the cast on bell housing and not adopting the 8BA style crankcase ventilation.

[glennpm]

Fantastic compilation!

I'm very surprised though that there have been no comments ether confirming or commenting on this thread.

Glenn

[Als48]

It is a very interesting thread. I enjoy reading about the evolution of the flathead. One thing I'm foggy on is which flatheads used a cylinder sleeve. I'm aware that some did and some didn't but don't remember any details. I remember Mart mentioning this on some of his videos. Guess I should have taken better notes. Ha ha

Al Hook

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Fantastic compilation!

I'm very surprised though that there have been no comments ether confirming or commenting on this thread.

Glenn

Agreed. Wow. Thank you for posting this, 38 Coupe! Excellent information

[rotorwrench]

The tin can sleeves, "named due to very thin wall steel construction" were a product of the prewar build up and were not common before 1940 or after 1941 or 42. I think this was an experiment by Ford to see how well they would work for either production or overhaul/repair. The fact that they didn't last may have been due to war time production slowing The T16 track vehicle was about the only fair size contracted military vehicle made at the Rouge that had the V8 in the 95-HP version. It was a larger version of the Bren Gun Carrier.

This thread will be the new "Go To" for flathead V8 ID.

[38 coupe]

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I really liked our previous flathead ID thread, but after the pictures died we needed to start over. The discussion in the previous thread was great, I'm hoping this thread brings out more detail.

I tried to keep things general enough that it would be interesting, but informative enough for people to positively identify an engine. At the moment the glaring omissions from the posted information that I would appreciate help on are:

• 1941-42 Ford block pictures
• Any sort of definite information about what flathead blocks were cast by Ford Motor Company in France and how they ended up manufactured for years by a different source for the French military.
• Detailed information about Dagenham flathead engine manufacturing
  • When did it start
  • When did designs get updated
  • Factory literature explaining the deviations from USA designs
• More about Koln flathead engine manufacturing
  • Exactly when did designs get updated
  • Factory literature explaining the deviations from USA designs
  • How far into the 1950s were flathead V8s being made? The latest I remember hearing about was 1955.
• Corrections to anything I have posted in this thread so far.

Please reply with any of these so we can all learn more about the Ford flathead V8 engines.


Here is a picture of a "tin can sleeve" that was originally shared in the first thread.

[Bored&Stroked]

Here are some pictures of my NOS 41/42 Mercury / WWII block. Notice that it has a factory relief, has a raised intake surface and has the round center water hole. It does NOT have core plugs in the pan rail and comes stock with a 3 3/16 bore (239 cubic inches).

The Ford blocks will have a trapezoid center water hole and will be 3 1/16 bore.

I'll include pictures of the AFTER state of the block - as I've heavily modified it for performance. You'll see heavy porting, full relief, large valves, large ports, etc..

Stock:

image.jpg

Heavily Modified:

BlockPrep4.jpg

DeckComplete.jpg

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Here are some pictures of my NOS 41/42 Mercury / WWII block. Notice that it has a factory relief, has a raised intake surface and has the round center water hole. It does NOT have core plugs in the pan rail and comes stock with a 3 3/16 bore (239 cubic inches).

The Ford blocks will have a trapezoid center water hole and will be 3 1/16 bore.

I'll include pictures of the AFTER state of the block - as I've heavily modified it for performance. You'll see heavy porting, full relief, large valves, large ports, etc..
Stock:Heavily Modified:

[glennpm]

Beautiful B&S!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Beautiful B&S!

Thank you sir! Am going to be building my first flathead again - first built it when I was 15.

It came out of the Kenz & Leslie streamliner that set the records as Bonneville in the early 50's. It is a 59L block - heavily ported, full-relief - just put in 1.75" intake seats and steel main caps from the front and center mains. Had it bored to 3.347 (85 mm) - this gives me a whole host of metric ring combinations to use. I'll have Ross make some custom pistons.

Going to create either an injected or blown flatty . . . just for fun! LOL

[38 coupe]

Thanks to glennpm we now have a picture of a 41-42 Ford block and post #11 has been updated.

[glennpm]

38 coupe and I compiled this block identification into one pdf. Makes it easier to use and keep for reference.

I've also added the attached pdf to "Techno Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford". The links are as below:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hbise...kjpb7bre0&dl=0

Glenn

[old Tom]

Thank You for ALL the information! It is worth saving.!

[Phil Gillespie]

How to earmark this great information for future access?LIke even 6 months down the track.
Phil NZ

[glennpm]

Hi Phil and old Tom,

These are my thoughts too. It would be good if we had a tech library on our site.

Glenn

[Mike Crehan]

Hi,

what a fantastic thread and resource. I am pretty ignorant about flat head V8s and have been trying to work out what I have in my recently acquired car.

It differs in detail from some of the information here, but I think it is Canadian made Mercury with full flow oil filter drillings. It also has a 59 cast inside the water jacket. The bore is 3 3/16" +.020. It has recessed heads and domed pistons. Photos attached.

[38 coupe]

Hi Mike,
Your pictures are not showing for me. Please edit your post to attach the pictures rather than just link them (you can link the attached pictures, a nice trick to make the pictures appear larger on this forum). Once we can see your pictures we can help narrow down exactly what you have for an engine.

[Bored&Stroked]

I'd say you have a Canadian 59AB engine . . . a "C59A" type of engine.

The water holes on the deck mimic the 39 - 42 Merc or WWII industrial block. My guess is that the valve angles are the same as a USA 59 series block - which are different than the earlier Merc blocks.

I've not personally built one, but it should be a great starting point (if you have the block checked out!).

[atch]

Originally Posted by glennpm

38 coupe and I compiled this block identification into one pdf. Makes it easier to use and keep for reference.

I've also added the attached pdf to "Techno Source for the 1932 thru 1953 Flathead Ford". The links are as below:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hbise...kjpb7bre0&dl=0

Glenn

Thanks to @glennpm and @38 coupe for compiling this great information into one pdf file. I've printed the 75-page file and the results will be installed into a 3-ring binder and placed on the shelf over the computer where I'm sitting typing this.

[glennpm]

Great and love to see it used!

Glenn