New Winfield update

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Yup, and less water volume flowing as a result of a thicker deck than the original manufacturer intended and along with more obstructions, known as ribs.

The truth is, no one knows how the head will work exactly until it is proven in the field.

Yeah, I feel somehow , that you are probably correct in some respect as to the volume idea. And, I agree that some practical use/testing will prove one way or other how good something is. However, I have used new heads that cracked fairly soon in use , and have used old worn out rusted out heads that also had cracking problems. I feel that with use of more modern foundry methods and more modern pattern creations, as well as more modern machining skills/techniques....all of these available to Tod, that I'm confident he will produce a better head than many available to us in the past. Better metal, better engineering and better machinist , IMO , will equal better head. That's why I'm already in on this project. Same logic and position relative to Tod's Model A/B blocks. Deposits on record, eh

And, don't ignore that if a guy puts the best head ever made , on a rusted block with a rust filled radiator and worn out water pump, that head would be destined for problems, including over heating /possible failure.

I'd be interested to hear/learn how a 'thicker deck' is or can be a 'problem'...overheating or otherwise

The heaviest head that I've ever run, so far, was Lion Head 111, which weighed in at about 55 + pounds. Best running head I ever had at 7:1 compression ratio. The maker advised me that the deck was thick enough to easily increase cr safely. Head ran cool and NEVER overheated on a NOS B block with rebuilt radiator. A friend that has a 100 pound rare OHV head has run it for decades, on the street and racing without overheating/cracking.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Yup, and less water volume flowing as a result of a thicker deck than the original manufacturer intended and along with more obstructions, known as ribs.

The truth is, no one knows how the head will work exactly until it is proven in the field.

In about 20 years we will know for sure.

My findings are this, the thinner deck contributes to gasket failures and possible deck distortion of the block.

As for running hot, I have a billet alum head where the quench area is a full 1" thick. There is water above this area and exits to radiator in two places, between 1&2 and 3&4. It does not run hot, has not cracked and the gasket stays sealed. I am using ARP studs and torking to 55 ft/# only.

IMHO, Tod is on the right track by adding deck material to the block and also to the heads.

Also, IMHO, the cooling system configuration is at best marginal. By this, I mean the water pump being used to pull the water from the motor is incorrect. When the water is hot and the pressure is lowered (to pull water) cavitation is more susceptible. By simply using the pump to push water through the motor you will increase the efficiency of the cooling system.

Again, just my opinion. John

Happy New Year

[edmondclinton]

All sounds good but once again the outcome will not be known until proven by actual use. The same goes for the new blocks, modern foundry methods notwithstanding.

[Jonnyenglish]

Very true, but I and many others it seems, are putting their trust into Tods expertise with deposits already down, looking forward to fitting and testing my 6:1, Happy new year to all.

[M2M]

So, with the Winfield soon to be available, how many different types of hi-compression heads will there be on the market? Is the Brumfield still being made?

[Juggler]

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Well the Snyders cast iron heads in 5.5 and 6:1

Then the aluminium Winfields in 6:1 and 7:1

Three versions of the Lion head in iron or ali

The finned aluminium Thomas head at 7:1

New Dan Price finned aluminium at 7.5:1

Donovan did list an ali flathead but I can't see it on their website any longer, and no I don't believe that the Brumfield head is still being made.

Any, in current production, that I've missed?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Well the Snyders cast iron heads in 5.5 and 6:1

Then the aluminium Winfields in 6:1 and 7:1

Three versions of the Lion head in iron or ali

The finned aluminium Thomas head at 7:1

New Dan Price finned aluminium at 7.5:1

Donovan did list an ali flathead but I can't see it on their website any longer, and no I don't believe that the Brumfield head is still being made.

Any, in current production, that I've missed?

I'll have a stock looking 6:1 aluminum available (one already cast and machined), a dual plug available in aluminum or iron, a Weiand version coming along, hopefully a rework of the Thomas actually made by a patternmaker this time, and have had requests for B versions of some heads of which I have already modeled up one, and my molding system will allow for a 7:1 chamber like the Thomas to be used in different heads. The possibilities are many. I have looked at other styles like the Brumfield and Super Winfield (I think).

Tod

[Juggler]

Weiand as well? Oh Lordy.

Don't expect any Xmas presents next year family....

[Juggler]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

Also, anybody can attempt to copy. Instead of attempting to copy everyone else's work, why can't you come up with your own design and do your own work?

Because people want a cast iron Winfield and are prepared to pay for it?

Just a guess

[Vic in E-TN]

If I were producing heads I would produce what would sell. I would be leery of designing something that is mostly unproven. I posted a question yesterday about the "crows foot" design and Jim Brierly posted an answer saying that the design is better because of better flow. I can accept this at face value because of Jim's reputation.

If I were designing a completely new head it would not be for an old design flat head engine. The Riley 2 and 4 port heads and another overhead type is available for several thousand $$. I have been a passenger in a sedan with a Riley 2 Port and I can report that it is almost scary fast. At the time all I could afford was a Lion head.

With the constraints of fitting a combustion chamber to the existing block, I doubt that there are many degrees of freedom available to anyone who wants to design a new head. I think that we are much better served by someone who can replicate design that have proven themselves over past decades but are no longer available at reasonable prices.

I think that someone well versed in Model A theory and application (MikeK of the Windy City for example) would be able to think combustion chamber design through and come up with some realistic thoughts and ideas. It probably would not make economic sense to secure a patent ($$$) and produce a prototype (more $$$) and test it on a dyno (more $$$). As Brent Terry has said many times the return on investment would probably scare away almost everyone.

Vic

[edmondclinton]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

If I were producing heads I would produce what would sell. I would be leery of designing something that is mostly unproven. I posted a question yesterday about the "crows foot" design and Jim Brierly posted an answer saying that the design is better because of better flow. I can accept this at face value because of Jim's reputation.

If I were designing a completely new head it would not be for an old design flat head engine. The Riley 2 and 4 port heads and another overhead type is available for several thousand $$. I have been a passenger in a sedan with a Riley 2 Port and I can report that it is almost scary fast. At the time all I could afford was a Lion head.

With the constraints of fitting a combustion chamber to the existing block, I doubt that there are many degrees of freedom available to anyone who wants to design a new head. I think that we are much better served by someone who can replicate design that have proven themselves over past decades but are no longer available at reasonable prices.

I think that someone well versed in Model A theory and application (MikeK of the Windy City for example) would be able to think combustion chamber design through and come up with some realistic thoughts and ideas. It probably would not make economic sense to secure a patent ($$$) and produce a prototype (more $$$) and test it on a dyno (more $$$). As Brent Terry has said many times the return on investment would probably scare away almost everyone.

Vic

Thanks for your input, Vic, but I'm not particularly interested in what you would do personally. Sorry.

I might add that trying to copy a casting may not yield the exact same results as the original master patterns used and made by the original manufacturer and their particular methods no matter how well the copy-cats can digitize, copy and cast. Seen it many times in my work.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

I have a few questions for you, Tod, before I would consider spending money.

I spent many years working in foundry practice and some of the statements that you've been making don't add up. For example, in one of your posts, a fellow asked, and you made the statement that you use the same mold to make an iron casting as you do an aluminum casting, as in an iron head and then an aluminum version of the same head. Well if that's what you do, the parts will not come out the same size and the only one that will be the correct size is the one whose pattern was made for the particular metal being poured, because the shrinkage rate, per foot, is greater for aluminum than it is for iron.

Also, anybody can attempt to copy. Instead of attempting to copy everyone else's work, why can't you come up with your own design and do your own work?

I have spent a quite a few hours, no, hundreds of hours to come up with a chamber that flows well, and has decent CR. It was basically done on a flow bench to get the numbers and then on the dyno. There is exactly ONE head that I machined to run at Bonneville. It has run a few laps at El Mirage and there is more work to do on it.

So far, it works better than the Winfield that we had available to compare against.

The design limitations of the motor dictate more or less the capability or power output potential. Until these limitations are corrected it is useless to think about developing another head. Now, if the block is changed with newer technology, there is some potential but not much.

I will not speak for Tod, however, in the discussions that we have had in the last year, you are wasting your time quizzing him about the technical aspects of the foundry/casting business.

Happy New Year, J

[Tod]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

I have a few questions for you, Tod, before I would consider spending money.

I spent many years working in foundry practice and some of the statements that you've been making don't add up. For example, in one of your posts, a fellow asked, and you made the statement that you use the same mold to make an iron casting as you do an aluminum casting, as in an iron head and then an aluminum version of the same head. Well if that's what you do, the parts will not come out the same size and the only one that will be the correct size is the one whose pattern was made for the particular metal being poured, because the shrinkage rate, per foot, is greater for aluminum than it is for iron.

Also, anybody can attempt to copy. Instead of attempting to copy everyone else's work, why can't you come up with your own design and do your own work?

I'll ignore the impugning of my honesty, integrity, and expertise and just say that if you don't want one of the heads then don't buy one. And let me add that it is unwise and arrogant to project your ignorance and inability onto others. They just may have more to bring to the table than you.

And, I'll make what I want to make, and what people ask me to make, as if it is any of your concern.

Tod

[zzlegend]

Thanks Tod.

[machine girl]

Right on Tod, a lot of jaw flapping going nowhere,

[Purdy Swoft]

Thanks Tod !!!!!!! I agree with ZZ and machine girl . Please keep up the good work .

[TinCup]

Why bring that crap to the board. I for one am anxious to see this project come to the hobby.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by M2M

So, with the Winfield soon to be available, how many different types of hi-compression heads will there be on the market? Is the Brumfield still being made?

Hey M2M,
A good question, to which the answer is NO !
IMO, a better question (obvious follow up Q) , is WHY not.
Mr. Brumfield is still alive/kicking , to my knowledge and used to post on the old Barn often. His creation was improvement on the original Ford heads in CR , but looked like stock heads. He made several CR and would make custom CR for those who requested. Many here have Brumfield heads and seem to not want to part with these heads..wonder why !

IMO, Brumfield heads are not being made because same second guessing, same belittling , same naysayers , same doubters, same Monday morning QBs and same unsubstantiated gossip went on to discourage Brumfield as is going on with My Buttermore currently.

Why did Brumfield and now Buttermore even contemplate getting into producing something/anything for this hobby ? Because they can !!
Both have the skill sets and tools to do whatever they want, in this case making flatheads and A/B blocks.
So, if you've had some job experience with working at a job and want to instruct someone who has mastered same job....your criticism might be appreciated , if asked for. Some say why 'copy' someone else's creation/work. Well, Ford (blocks), Winfield (heads and everything else ) and others were still here , I think that they would appreciate, rather than complain. Also, Fordbarn members were asked what they would purchase (read the past threads) and that determines what is made. Because making stuff is expensive and you'd like to get paid for your work and expenditures...basic economics eh.

I might add that I am hoping that this hobby does not chase away any more creative members.

[CarlG]

Todd is 'da man'. 100% behind you!

Just a little side point here: If it weren't for Tod and his expertise, none of us would have the 5.5 or 6.1 "Snyder" heads.

[M2M]

So, by the end of the year there will be around a dozen different heads available (including different compression ratios of the same head).

I guess people will buy based on price and/or brand and image. Without comprehensive independent testing of all the heads making a decision based on numbers will not be easy.