Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Here's the short story.
Doing some long overdue maintenance on my high milage Deuce Roadster
which includes front brakes. One of the original {USA} front wheel cylinders was leaking so I decided to replace both with new wheel cylinders. The new cylinders are now import quality so of course one of them leaked really bad during the bleeding process. Discovered the problem was the cup in the cylinder.

At this point I'm not crazy about the poor quality of this import stuff!
What I would like to do is just freshen up my original wheel cylinders. To do the rebuild I need 1-3/8 and 1 inch wheel cylinder cups. Would anyone know where I can get the cups in these sizes?
Also wondering what other have done when they needed wheel cylinders.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Fifteen years ago I put some foreign repro wheel cylinders in my car and found the hole leading in from the hose was drilled off center. With the cups pushed all the way in, the fluid would bleed past the cup lip. When I reassembled after cleaning, I made sure the shoes were adjusted to close to their final place, then put the fluid to the cylinder. Solved the immediate problem by making sure you weren’t making the cups overlap the hole.

About ten years ago I wanted to put some fresh cups on my rear cylinders. I went to the parts store and what would have been available in the drawers in the old days, now required a special order. It they were still able to order them in.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

NAPA # 1499 for 1" cups and # 857 for 1-3/8" cups

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Hey
Ronnieroadster
Did you find the "new" cups to be "shorter" in length than the good ole' USA ones??? IF so can you let us know how the NAPA ones turn out. I believe this discussion on the "new" wheel cylinders was had on a previous thread and I can't remember IF it was the cups that were different OR the hole for the fluid was in a slightly different location and this was causing cylinders to leak IF the cups got pushed back too far???

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Yes the new cups are shorter they measure .200 compared to the US which are .360. The tapered area of the short cup is .130 wide the US cup is .230 wide.
Another difference the shorter cups have a series of of ribs around that shorter .170 tapered area this makes the sealing surface almost non existent.
There's also another problem I'm experiencing with the wheel cylinders they do not retract correctly compared to the original US wheel cylinders. This creates a dragging brake shoe issue
I'm going to check and see what NAPA has will give an update once i have them in hand.
This year makes it 50 years I've been driving the roadster updating parts and having an issue sure sucks. I'm going to rebuild the original wheel cylinders to get things back to normal.
Thanks to everyone for your input. I'm off to NAPA
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Ronnie, try Foundry Street Classic Parts, formerly N.B. Pease & Co. in Palmer, Mass. 413-283-7620. The new owner, Brian Keith was formerly an employee of N.B. Pease. Brian has millions, no bullshit, of antique auto parts. Brian is only there on Fridays and Saturdays, but he has an answering machine for your needs. 99 % of his parts are U.S. made. most of which Nelson Pease accumulated over more than 50 years in business.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

...https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...7&d=1682108693

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I have fixed many of my wc by washing them in the kitchen sink with hot water and dish washer soap. Most of the time the rubber is re usable. Hot soapy water dissolves old brake fluid crud and leaves everything clean. A quick trip to the oven dries out the pores of the cast. use a knife to then scrape out any rings that are left in the cyl. The old practice was to hone cylinders when they were torn down and I believe it did more damage than good. Of course make sure the wife is not around.............

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

If you can't get new good quality ones is there not someone who can sleeve the originals in stainless? You can never scrimp on brakes.

Gb

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I bought a set of China made w/c s and found they were dry, bleed hole was in right position, and phoney cups. After cleaning w/c s and lubricating, new cups from Napa they seemed good. If you have a lathe and a press, you can sleeve one yourself.
Good luck if you get caught after an accident


Bruce

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I think it was White Post Restorations that can sleeve your cylinders in stainless

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Update today I was able to get good USA quality cups at NAPA they had 4 of each size in stock. Thanks Uncle Buck for the part numbers. I ordered an additional box of each size to keep in stock for the future.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Another solution if you are stuck using the bad (new) wheel cylinders is to mill the slot on the large piston a little deeper letting the cup move out and away from the miss-drilled hole.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Glad I was able to help. Old parts books are irreplaceable.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Thanks; going to save those numbers; maybe even pick-up a few just in case.

The kid could always use them if I never get to.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

My experience was that the mis drilled cylinders were for the rear. Front cylinders are normally ok. But I still dismantle and inspect just in case.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Petehoovie, thanks for the picture of the N.B. Pease & Co. main building. I have spent many an afternoon at Pease's looking and sometimes finding what I needed. when Nelson was there, you would ask him for a part, he would know if he had the part and where it was located. Nelson did all of this from memory, no computer. I hope that Brian Keith can continue to provide the same service. There are few places left that have this quantity and selection of parts available.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

We just went through this on a friends' roadster. The hole where the fluid comes into the cylinder was drilled off center like others have said. The fluid comes in hitting the side of the rubber cup and pushes it away from the cylinder wall instead of behind it. It didn't matter who we ordered them from we got the same defective cylinders.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Thanks for reporting back Ronnie - I think I'm going to see if I can order some from NAPA to have around here . . as sure as Hell I'll need them someday.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

What I’ve done is once I have everything in place and the shoes expanded to the drums is to apply air pressure into the wheel cylinder to push the piston and cups outward. This is all because the new offshore wheel cylinders aren’t made just right.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

It's pretty sad that businesses continue to sell these defective parts that are so critical to safe vehicle operation. Thousands of vehicles are routinely subject to factory safety recalls for matters that are comparatively trivial by comparison. Seems like there should be an agency that things like this could be reported to.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

That certainly would be nice. This problem started once a company decided to have the wheel cylinders reproduced who ever that was knowing it was going to be done off shore obviously did not spend any time on quality control.

Since I drive my Deuce roadster more than most 100,0000 miles plus so far in the past 50 years the safety aspects of this issue is a big deal to me. I knew going into this the off shore stuff may not be up to the task. But I decided to try a set of wheel cylinders hoping I could save some time and effort. That turned out to be a dumb idea. Lesson learned.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Nick,
I had often wondered about his business, have not been there for many years (early 1970's). Good to know that it is still in operation.
Steve

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I checked with NapaOnline . . . they did not have the 1 3/8" cups . . . but maybe your local Napa store does. I'm going to pickup a few sets (if possible)

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Same here. I have a set of USA made cylinders on my car and one set in stock left. I'd like to have the parts on hand to rebuild these when the time comes.

Thanks for updates, Ronnie. I'm sure you'll get it sorted out.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Here's some more info about the wheel cylinders issues. I finally rebuilt the two original Wagner wheel cylinders I removed last month and put them back on my roadster. With the originals back on the car I decided to take the junk import cylinders completely apart to see if I can determine why they are so Fu--ed up.
As I wrote previously the cups being completely different than the original design is one issue and now I discovered another huge problem with the import crap the pucks inside these cylinders are steel not aluminum! The heavy weight of these pucks added to the additional friction of two similar metals riding along each other adds to the problem of the cylinders not retracting.

So that's the story this became a learning curve which ended up damaging the newly relined brake shoes which were mounted to the original Ford shoe frames.

Since my relined shoes were now junk I had to use a set of reproduction shoes I had in stock which I tried years ago and had issues with them as well. After a lot of measuring the repro stuff to the original shoes which turned into a lot of time with a welder and milling machine the repro shoes are working. Good thing I have been doing this back yard Hot Rod stuff for a long time we can usually fix anything. :rolleyes:
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Ronnie,

Thanks for the update and the scoop on what the deal is with these off shore wheel cylinders.

Bummer about the shoes.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Your welcome Tim. The relined shoes were a couple hundred so no big loss I'm leaning towards doing the reline my self in the future might as well keep everything in house. ;)

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I sleeved a set of wheel cylinders awhile back but never inquired of the customer what cups he was going to use.
Guess I should have but now I know..

When I put the current body on my hot rod about 20 years ago I replaced the old Lockheeds with a Wilwood kit. They don't look traditional but they keep right on working even when the disks are red hot.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Hi Pete
Red hot man I would not do that to my front drums. :eek: Heck they were $25.00 for the pair when I put them on the roadster 50 years ago paid a lot of money for them but heck they were chromed and off an old Hot Rod the guy was putting disks on his Rod back then glad he did. :cool:
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

If you can find some Velvet Touch sintered bronze lining and put some scoops on the back plates, the old Lockheeds will work quite well for vintage airport racing or backwoods rallying.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Completely off topic, but interesting to note that Pete is Ford Barn MEMBER #2, obviously right behind Ryan as #1.

Coop

.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Wow, I didn't know that but you must remember, my computer has a crank on the side.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I like that Pete, I thought you were describing my computer. It took me over a half hour to download a picture from my phone, resize it and post on a discussion here the other night. Frustrating some times.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Off topic, but when my old computer took a crap, I found a new Windows laptop on Amazon for $209. The only problem is that it runs Windows 11 (the latest version), which is just as inscrutable as it's makers.

The pricing on electronics these days is unbelievable.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I chuckled thinking of Pete's computer hanging on the wall with the mouse dangling on the side.

When he turns it on, he cranks it a few times and says, "Operator, get me Fordbarn 6-5000."

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Another F1 front cylinder question. Does anyone know if there is supposed to be an adapter between the brake line and the cylinder port? I bought new wheel cylinders and rubber lines from NAPA and the inverted flare fittings on the hoses don't seat into the ports on the cylinders. Currently have a crush washer between the hose flange and cylinder. They aren't going to stay but they stopped the leak.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

I think to get the correct seal a simple copper washer is required. That's all I use with the front brake hoses. The copper would work similar to the crush washer but maybe a bit better.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

Thank you for the reply. It's been a couple of years since I ran those lines. Maybe I did use solid copper washers rather than copper crush washers. I hate getting old. I knew all this stuff several decades ago. Now, I've got to ask. Thank you again.

Re: Wheel Cylinder issues
 

A plain copper washer is correct (usually come with new wheel cylinders).

"Modern" copper washers are too hard and should be annealed before use.

Heat them up red hot and let them air cool or quench them; either way works.