welding a block
 

Anyone have success welding a hole in the side of a flathead? The hole is the size of a pencil eraser? Thanks Bruce

Re: welding a block
 

Drill and tap for 1/8" pipe plug if there is room.Why weld if you don't have to. Cast iron can be a real crap shoot unless done by a creditable welding shop get some quotes.Welding would be my last choice just my .02. What caused the hole?

Ronnie

Re: welding a block
 

J.B. Weld ?? Nothing to lose.
Paul in CT

Re: welding a block
 

Ronnie hit the nail on the head. When I installed 59AB heads on an 8BA block I used a pipe thread tap and then screwed in a pipe plug with non hardening Permatex so it was just below the deck surface . Then covered it with JB weld. That was 10 years ago and it's still holding. I think you could do the same.

Re: welding a block
 

How about posting of photo of the problem area. How large exactly and what caused the hole. Never seen a small (bullet hole?) Don't weld if possible. Let's get more infomation first. JMHO Frank pkny

Re: welding a block
 

My 2 cents...
Wonder why you have that hole- look for cracks around the hole, AND pressure test AND magnaflux the block befor going to other expence... I have a fair amount of respect for brazing on the outside of a block- if you do, try to get the whole block at least warm first... Karl

Re: welding a block
 

i agree with karl brazing is best but get the block area where you are going to braze warm first this will help :)

Re: welding a block
 

Theres a special welding alloy rod for it but you only get one shot. Put a holler on the HAMB and see if any of those guys know a local that can show you a bit of his work.

Re: welding a block
 

As I recall my late ol-school father brazed even pressure vessels of cast iron. He could do pretty oxy-acteylene and stick welds, but he definately was not going for
looks when he brazed cast iron. I think also, that warm was an understatement...more like rosebud hot on the part to be welded.

Re: welding a block
 

I recently drug out a 59L block I bought from a gent a few years ago. Upon closer inspection I've found a hairline crack on the back of the bellhousing just below the 59. I suspect it may have mounted it an engine stand at one time. Do I need to expect this to get worse? Any suggestions for repair? Thanks Guys

Re: welding a block
 

Big Shark Bruce: I'd suggest rounding out the hole if need be. Then use either an appropriately-sized metal, plastic or rubber expansion plug.

Burly: Are you sure the hairline crack isn't just a surface casting imperfection? Can you see if it extends to the inside surface?

Jack E/NJ

Re: welding a block
 

I had a similar problem and just drilled it out for a 1/4" npt plug.

Re: welding a block
 

Always wondered how Ford welded the entire sides onto the 1937 V8 60 block. They were welded with one continuous bead around the entire perimeter and the weld was beautiful.

Re: welding a block
 

I tried a couple of things in the shop Saturday. I took a steam trap (its cast iron), and drilled a couple of holes in it to practice my welding. I tried spray-metal, certanium rod, and a castiron rod. The spray metal would just ball up. The certanium rod cracked when it cooled, The cast rod looked great. Until I pressure checked it. It leaked were the weld met the cast. I think I will try the brazing method. Ill let you guys know how it turs out. Bruce

Re: welding a block
 

The crap shoot syndrome now begins. You won't get same results with a block if the cast iron properties are different from your test piece.

Ronnie

Re: welding a block
 

I braze a lot of cast iron printing press parts. Braze works well but you must heat up a large area. The entire block would be best, I know that is not practical. You can ruin the block very easly. I brazed a tractor block years ago. Getting things very hot is important. Yesterday I brazed a cast iron model T muffler end. It came out great. Engine blocks can be tuff , cracking when cool downing. That's why the entire block should be heated. I don't remember exactly what tempeture you need possibly someone else can jump in.

Re: welding a block
 

Here is some reading on cast iron welding---
http://www.locknstitch.com/castironwelding.htm

it describes the problem you have and how to do it properly

Re: welding a block
 

I use nickle rod for most cast iron if i am using a stick welder. Marv

Re: welding a block
 

An old mechanic/welder near me used to weld up blocks with massive damage. He once showed me a block where he'd nickel-welded about six pieces of cast together that had been knocked out the side of the block in his pickup. It looked like a puzzle, but the engine didn't leak afterward. after seeing that, I asked him to weld the end of my Model T engine block where a 1 X 2 inch piece of water jacket had broken out due to freezing. That weld is pretty. He'd heat the block with a torch before using the nickel rod, and he'd skip around when doing the arc-welding.

Re: welding a block
 

I had a block about 10 yrs ago that had a hole about 1/2" diameter on the drivers side just above the oil pan rail . The hole didnt show up until the block went through the cleaner . I layed the block on its side and braced it up so the hole was pointing straight down. I then mixed up a whole tube of J.B. weld and kept poking it into the hole then cut a piece of sheet copper and clamped it up overnight. That engine is in a friends 40 and has never leaked a drop after all these years and several thousand miles.

Re: welding a block
 

Paul in CT wrote >>>J.B. Weld ?? Nothing to lose.>>>
Then Ken/Alabama wrote >>>I then mixed up a whole tube of J.B. weld and kept poking it into the hole then cut a piece of sheet copper and clamped it up overnight. That engine is in a friends 40 and has never leaked a drop after all these years and several thousand miles.>>>

OK, Big Shark. After carefully considering all the suggestions, Paul's & Ken's seemed best to me.
And if JB Weld doesn't work, then you can try Ronnie's, 19Fordy's & Ol' Ron's suggestion of rounding out the hole with a drill and simply plugging or tapping for a threaded pipe plug.
Then if all the above nothing-to-lose fixes don't work, then you can try the more risky almost everything-to-lose fixes.
Those are my opinions, and I'm sticking to them. 8^)
Jack E/NJ
PS: I think Sturgis 39 had some words of wisdom that might well apply to your situation --- "if it can't be fixed with bailing wire, JB Weld or ducttape, it can't be fixed."

Re: welding a block
 

To weld cast iron the metal needs to be at least 400 degrees F iirc. Check with the welding rod instructions.

Many years ago my dad helped a friend rebuild a 100 ton punch press with a cracked bed. They took it to a heat treater who spend 2 days bringing it up to temperature, my dads friend welded it (sucessfully), then 2 more days cooling it. Heating/cooling too quickly could have warped or cracked it more.

Best bet is if it needs to be welded find someone with the experience to do it right (or plan on practicing on 200 or so junk pieces to get your technique right).

Re: welding a block
 

Show us a picture for a good look at the damage.

Ronnie

Re: welding a block
 

If the crack/hole only needs to hold cooling system pressure, JB Weld it. I've done a number of engines with it, and it held great...none ever let loose. The MOST important thing is surface prep. Clean, clean, clean! Second choice...drill/tap/thread in a plug. Third choice...braze. Fourth choice...another block. LAST choice...weld...

Re: welding a block
 

Yes the cast part has to be preheated or when the hot electrode is placed on the frozen iron the alloy thermal shocks at the contact point and leaks. In practical theory all welds are best when the components are heated to reduce the thermal or shrink shock. When you heat a clean peice of cast you can watch the temperature chase the moisture out of it, if you apply an electrode directly to the cast part it will not do that, it traps it causing cracks and inclusion. The big problem with welding your block is that you will have to find just the right alloy to do it. Might need a junk block to learn on. Evenly warming a block uniformly should not damage it, it most likely gets hotter than that in some places during use and hat would be a non uniform heat. You get the best result if you temper cool the repair on the way out of heat, gradually reduce the temp over time in a controlled environment, turn down an oven over time. It would be a fun thing to play around with on a block, I've done a lot of cast iron stack brazing, we call it brazing though it's not, however plumbing cast iron is truly garbage in comparison to an auto engine block. For this I used a Ni Rod stick SMAW process, preheat the rods to 500 and the stack fitting to 500. On junk cast it's like welding a styro foam cooler, it foams and gets all goofy. How much pressure is in a flathead block that you are looking to hold back? I use a product called crack stick on thin cracks, it holds back a pound or so of pressure. You have to clean the surface well apply it hot and work it deep into the crack.

Re: welding a block
 

yeah 400 degrees is good...oxy weld it and then place it in a sand box for cooling the sand traps the heat and gradually cools it down...a large welding shop should be able to handle this no problem

Re: welding a block
 

Cold fix is best if possible. If the hole is from corrosion, drill it till you have sufficient thickness to tap for a plug with Locktite - or talk to your welder about Muggy 77 stick rod for cast iron repair.

Re: welding a block
 

You know my suggestion. Perfect application for JB weld!

Re: welding a block
 

Has anyone here used Muggyweld? Comments? Thanks Bruce.

Re: welding a block
 

Big Shark wrote>>>Muggyweld? Comments?>>>

I think JB Weld should be the first thing you try. Followed by some type of aforementioned plug. Last, any fix that involves heating a big hunk of cast iron.

Jack E/NJ

Re: welding a block
 

What is the intent of saving this block ?

Do you have $$$$ tied up in machining ?

Rare block???

Let us know WE want pictures.

Ronnie

Re: welding a block
 

Im trying to get a rebuildable motor for my 37 sedan. Pics will be coming. Bruce

Re: welding a block
 

Welding cast iron can be an interesting challenge. A restrained joint condition, such as the middle, side of an engine block, can be the more difficult to deal with. There are two basic procedures commonly used. The first is what can be termed "cold welding". This involves using a very ductile stick electrode with absolute minimum heat applied and followed with immediate "peening". The weld actually looks like a series of very short spots, each of which have received serious peening. There is plenty of cooling time allowed between the application of each weld "spot" and the temperature of the weld area is never allowed to become uncomfortable to the bare hand resting on it. It is best to have 2 jobs going on at the same time so you can weld a "spot", peen for a minute, go to the second job for 30 minutes, return for another round of spot and peen, etc. etc. A highly restrained joint can survive best if "buttered" all around with your ductile filler rod before attempting completion or closure of the crack or hole. In other words, the final weld spots should not join 2 sides of cast iron, but rather, couple 2 sides of filler rod.

The second method for welding cast iron involves using a large furnace where the block is allowed to "soak" so the core termperature is maintained at a high level. For spray welding the core temperature should not drop below 600 degrees. This means it is sometimes necessary to either return a partially welded item to the furnace or apply some of the welding while the part is in the furnace. As you might guess there can be some discomfort for the operator. Some procedures require 1000 degrees, or more, to safely weld cast iron. The welding is followed by a strict cool-down procedure which can take 2 or more days.

Welding of non-restrained joints in cast iron can be as simple as welding steel. But, any restrained joint condition can set off a series of unpleasant happenings when welding is done.

Re: welding a block
 

I've just found a similar issue with a 59 block I was planning to use. I had it checked by a shop for cracks, it was supposedly OK, then the same guy did all the machine work for me. Well that was about four years ago, my project is finally getting to the point that I wanted to start putting the motor together, so I'm cleaning the water jackets with evaporust, and notice a wet spot at a point that I thought was a casting flaw.
Well it's not, I just pressure tested it and it is definitly seeping out this spot, slowly at about 10 psi. It takes about 10 minutes to get down to 3 psi.
The black spot in the center is actually the evaporust seeping out.
It is about the size of a dime, on the rear oil pan surface.
So my question is, Why can't I drill it out and put a welch plug in the hole? It would be hidden mostly by the pan. What do you guys think?

Re: welding a block
 

Yes, you probably could, but you would need to drill the hole very accurately to get the right sort of interference fit for the plug.
If it subsequently leaked, water could get into the sump so it is pretty critical.
I'd be tempted to drill out to the tapping size for a pipe plug - say a 1/4" plug, that's just over 1/2" outer diameter - then see if there's plenty of meat there, if so, tap it, fit a plug and grind/file it smooth - if it's still a bit flaky when drilled to that size, drill to the next size up and fit a 3/8" plug.

That should be a relatively cheap, quick and easy fix.

Mart.

Re: welding a block
 

I had a hole in the side of my block. Took a punch and chipped out around the hole to be sure I got to solid metal, then rounded it out and put a 1/8 " pipe plug in it and it hasn't leaked a drop yet. Easiest and best way to do it IMHO.

Re: welding a block
 

If the hole turns out to be bigger than expected, a rubber expansion plug could also be tried.

Jack E/NJ

Re: welding a block
 

I know a machinist that could drill an accurate hole, but if I can do it myself with pipe plug it would be better. There is plenty of area around the spot before I get into any of the sides of the block, so I might even be able to go 3/4" plug if needed.

Re: welding a block
 

There's no need for either of these methods if any kind of electric welding is done it should be done with a tig welder not a stick welder or spray welding. Maybe 40 years ago you could do this but even then it's a long shot. Honestly it shouldnt have even been brought up. Every machiniest I know has told menallmblock cracks get fixed using oxy-acetylene or a tig welder in similar fashion with headting the block and a sand box cool down....now that's nearly 30 guys in the local machiniest society we all had breakfast this morning. So if you're going to weld take it to someone who knows what he's doing

Re: welding a block
 

Are we done yet ???

Jb weld,tigging,ni rods,Grampa's oxy,my uncles spray weld,pipe plugs.