Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel.

This fan had been wet-Magnafluxed at an aviation repair shop and certified free of cracks, yet failed within about 1400 miles of installation.

Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

Joe

P.S. According to the adjuster, his Grundy insurance will cover all the damage except for the broken fan blade itself.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Several years ago, I drove my 31 Vicky to church, on way home no problem, stopped to let son get paper out of paper box, he said there was water coming out of hood loovers, drove 300 more feet to park at house, opened hood and the two blade fan had ate the radiator, got me, cost a lot to fix and never was the same fit with different radiator, get them out before someone is killed by a bad blade, Bruce

As far as look alike, I don't care, let us see one, Bruce

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I think the clearly all original blades should be removed and become part of your tool kit for the judges to inspect. Use a repro for goodness sake. This is a known safety issue which should stand higher the demand for originalness.
clem Clement

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

[QUOTE=JoeWay;5985]Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel.


Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

Very good safety point.
Mark

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Depends greatly on price. The aluminum 2-blade fan is up to about $50.

I'd guess a lot of people including me would be in at $75 or so. Not so many at $100 or more.

Joe

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Yup some people never learn and insist they still have the same air that Henry put in the tires. As far as Brent's hint I for one would want to know where the steel came from to manufacture new ones.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I would be interested

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Me too..!

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I would within reason.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Well, I'm not sure any of us know exactly where the steel we use today comes from :eek:, ...but this person is a well known manufacturer of quality Model A parts that we all know.

Guessing "out-loud", I would expect the finished product to probably be about double that Joe, maybe even triple that. For me personally, I would probably buy 10-12 of them a year just because they would be an accurate reproduction that works correctly and looks authentic. I realize many probably won't see the value over the alum. 2 blade but on the flip side, it is truly amazing how many folks out there pay extra for Goodyear tires instead of the cheaper ones, --or pay extra for the Bill Stipe shocks or his new camshafts, or purchase the new electronic distributers and Aries mufflers and such that is of higher quality and more authentic looking.

One thing is for sure, I suspect that if there are new authentic-looking two-blade fans available, I doubt you will ever see the Stds. change.;)


.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

If the price and quality were good, I would be interesred!:)

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I would be interested in one for one car, but I also would be interested in a better made aluminum fan for other cars.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Me too! I would buy one also because the body work repairs would be alot more. $75.00 to $100.00 would then be cheap

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I suspect the manufacturer I speak of is lurking and will be reading this at some point.;)

What has me curious is what is AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS? Using the analogy as above, Aries mufflers are not "exact" due to manufacturing costs but they are "close enough". Stipe's shocks are not "exact" because he made some slight internal modifications to improve on design and/or reduce production times. They are "close enough" to get the job done. My point is that IMO, sometimes we need to be careful while swallowing the camel that we don't choke on a gnat.:D Otherwise these ideas kinda stagnate just sitting on the drawing board.

.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I have seen a fan off a Model A and one off of a Model T (both owned by the same guy) come through the hood. If you have a safe option that is nearly original I'd say God bless ya - send me a bill

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Well...I have a Stipe cam and an Aries muffler, but I won't be in the market for a $250-$300 fan. I suspect the market will consist of future high-point restos, the current high-point restos that are still being shown, plus a very few other people who have to have the best. I really have no idea how many that is, but I bet you have a pretty good idea, Brent.


I agree that such a fan would cause the standards to remain status quo.

Joe

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Brent , the weld spots around the hub/fan blade to hub. Having a hard time doing the same spot welds.Other then that all is good to go.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

[QUOTE=JoeWay;5985] Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

The standards do allow a 'original style metal fan' to pass prelim judging. Then it's a points deduction in final judging. They have for over a year...fwiw,jm

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I would be interested if it looks good and is not too expensive. Less then $100.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason?

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I'D be in for two steel fans

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

About fifteen years ago I purchased a steel reproduction fan from Bratens and it was so out of balance and untrue that I sent it back. I would be interested in purchasing if the new one check out.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Tom, personally I'm comfortable at 55 plus on the right road. I used a later four-blade fan for the last few years until a few weeks ago when I installed one of the new Snyder aluminum fans.

The club member who lost the blade is more of a 45-50 mph type, and we had been doing that speed for many miles on a fairly rural road when the blade came off.

I can't answer the questions about rust, other than to say it was VERY rusty inside the remaining part of the fan. It was bead-blasted prior to Magnaflux and painted after. The hub and remaining blade still look as new.

Joe

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

After all of the many, many warning posts listed the past couple of years, it is hard to imagine anyone still insisting on using those old steel fans. The word has been out for a long time now, but maybe the local clubs need to emphasize this to their members...........

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

The guy i am talking about with a "NEW STEEL" authentic fan did test one out. And yes its 10X stronger and runs at a higher rpm's. He even flew down to Texas to speak to Miller welding company about the welds.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist:D nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the :eek: cyclic work hardening :confused: so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

Jim may have an excellent point that the aluminum unit is the best alternative in fine-point & touring class where the owner would understand going in there will be a point deduction but that the alloy fan is allowed.

.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

i just had a 4 blade one go the other dat so the problem is not just the oririnal 2 bladed ones.

As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive?

Let's face it, with enough money you can have an A built with brand new materials and have it make 500 points.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

mike was it the replacement bolt together 4 blade fan

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Depends. If it is the differences between 125 points and 130 points, probably not. If it is the difference between 495 points and 500 points, hell yes!

Even putting aside safety concerns (which are very valid!), if the judging standards don't allow safer fans, then there will be a lot fewer original radiators and hoods out there.

Steve
('31 Deluxe Coupe with not-very-original 4-blade fan)

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Steve, the Standards DO allow you to use something other than an original fan --but not without a deduction. I think the point of view on this is that if they alter the Standards to "overlook" something, then they are compromising the very reason for having Judging or saying the JS is a book by which states how Henry Ford intended each of his cars to roll out of the factory door looking like.

I think what we sometimes forget is that when we enter a vehicle in fine-point judging, not everything must be exactly like it is written in the Standards to participate. I can have many deviations as long as the 'Big 14' qualifications are met. Often times, an owner must determine exactly how much a point is worth to them financially. THAT value is different between owners!


.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

The late '31 design/replacement fan Ford offered to fix this problem 75 years ago? Not heard much feedback on that fan -- other than it is rare and expensive.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I don't have a dog in this hunt....I have 6 blade plastic on my cars...But, as I understand it, it's not IF an original will self destruct, it's WHEN.
Bet you can't get a radiator replaced.......hood repaired......or ckeck out of the ER.....cheaper.
Then you have to buy/find a new fan anyway.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Was the late 31 fan made for a "fix" or was it just cheaper to manufacture?

I have been using the late fan for 35 years, I bought a NOS one at hershey -the seller told me it was no good for judging because it had the "seam" on the back (which means I bought it cheap)

I have seen the late fans with broken blades also, they seem to mostly break at the weld seam.

After looking at the quality of the reproduction alum fan I decided to take my chances with what I have.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

I have a 2-blade fan and you are making me nervous. How do you tell if it is an original fan? I'm guessing that it is not, but is there a way to check without removing it?

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

If you have a 2 blade fan and the blades are made by welding 2 stamped pieces of steel together with a rolled weld around the outer edge of the blades, then you have an original fan like I am running. A single thickness steel 2 blade would be a later replacement, or even a replacement 4 blade with 2 blades removed.

The aluminum 2 blade fans had a problem with blades not being parallel to each other, and one blade often looked like it was curved rearward. Hopefully the ones being made now are much improved. I haven't worked on one for a year or more.

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Jim and Brent, I think this would be a major issue to me if I were building a points car. Either you're after all the points or you're not. If you are, you need a fan that passes without deduction. From that perpective, $300 is not too much to pay for a fan that passes. Some of the points guys pay more than that for NOS parts that are less significant in judging.

I don't know if there are any other original parts that have proven conclusively to be a hazard to the car itself and (potentially) to adjacent people as well. I can't think of any. This to me indicates a strong need to make an exception for fans.

I really like Clem's idea--require an original fan, but make it a display item and allow a safe fan on the car with no deduction.

Joe

Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll
 

Tom, at our club meeting Tuesday night Ron said he had been running original fans for 47 years and never had a problem. It always happened to the other guy.

He's ordered one Snyder fan for his coupe and another for his roadster. He also has a very early (A12xx) huckster which he is restoring for judging. I bet he replaces the fan on that one after he takes it to a meet.

Joe