Toe-In and Steering Question

[marc hildebrant]

Group,

I checked my Toe-In today and it was about 1/8 inch. I.E. front more than rear.

I adjusted the toe-in to about 1/32...just about zero. That took about a 1/4 of a turn of the tie rod shaft.

When I took the car out for a test drive, the steering had less "wander" and drove very well. Prior to the adjustment, it seemed to drive O.K. but had some wander.

The steering has about 3/4 inch of freeplay.

I also thought that the steering was somewhat "harder" after the adjustment..but that is hard to say.

So, the question is, did the toe-in help the steering, or did I just remove some play in the system ?

Marc

[RHD]

Marc.
There could many be other factors influencing your steering problems. It is very difficult, if not near impossible, to gain an accurate tow in with worn ball joints or other worm steering parts. You should really aim for around 1/16" tow in. The condition of your steering box is a big influence on steering ability. Before you go any further, disconnect a ball joint at the drivers side, preferably the one to the drag link, or the drop arm (Pitman arm) from the steering box to see what wear is evident. If there is significant wear that is one area to start to improve.
Worn ball joints will have drastic effects on tire wear also.
Keep us informed of what you find.
Les.

[700rpm]

I think you definitely helped with the closer toe-in. RHD is right; it is difficult to get anything adjusted if there is a lot of wear. But I have also found that it is difficult to get it adjusted when everything is new, unless you have a KRW toe-in tool. 1/32"-1/16" is certainly within tolerance, I would say. You could have that much variance just in where you measure on the tires!

[marc hildebrant]

Group,

Prior to the toe-in adjustment, I did go through the steering system to check for wear. The only significant "slop" that I could find was only in the steering box and that's about 3/4 inch.

I'm pretty sure that the steering parts are O.K.

Marc

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

Group,

I checked my Toe-In today and it was about 1/8 inch. I.E. front more than rear.

So are you saying that you actually started out with toe-out (front more than rear)?

[marc hildebrant]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Hummmmmm.....

The method I used was : The front measurement was less than the back by about 1/8 inch when I started. After the adjustment, the back was just a little more (1/32) than the front.

Toe-In or Out ?

Marc

[glenn in camino]

I adjusted the toe in today on my new restoration. It was 3/4". I adjusted it to 1/8". It's got 150 miles on it now and running cooler with the license plate up.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

Hummmmmm.....

The method I used was : The front measurement was less than the back by about 1/8 inch when I started. After the adjustment, the back was just a little more (1/32) than the front.

Toe-In or Out ?

Marc

OK, just a misunderstanding - I was assuming when you said "front more than rear" that you were referring to the measurements.

[Napa Skip]

There are good articles on alignment of the Model A front end, including explanations of camber, caster and toe-in, as well as a discussion on the steering-related differences between contemporary (i.e., 1928-1931) automobile tires and modern automotive tires. If you have access to the MARC and MAFCA club magazines you might try: “Model ‘A’ Ford Front End” by Dick Valot from the Model “A” News (I neglected to note the issue but there are indexes available on line); “Tuning Up A Model A Front End” by Milton Webb in the January/February issue of The Restorer; and “Proper Front-End Alignment Using Modern Day Tires” by Steve Smith in the March/April 2004 issue of The Restorer. Valot’s article also gives easily understandable illustrations and directions for measuring caster, camber and toe-in.

Other articles from The Restorer are: “Front End Alignment” by Merle (?) Smith (March/April 1980), “Servicing The Steering” by Murray Fahnestock (September/October 1966), “Why-What-How” from the Steering Gear sidebar (July/August 1957), and “Patent Cures – Toe-in” (July/August 1995).

Although toe-in is the only adjustment that can be easily done in the home workshop, caster (5 degrees backward tilt) can be adjusted – as pointed out in the first of the articles listed above – by “…raising or lowering the position of the radius ball (with shims) in the ball socket beneath the flywheel housing…”

Lastly, although hopefully never needed, the above article by Steve Smith discuses how camber can be changed – as is done with solid front axles on commercial vehicles – by having a professional alignment shop re-arch the axle (that ought to take your breath away).

Of course all these adjustments are only effective after ensuring the correct tire pressure, straight (as possible) wheels, properly operating spring shackles, correctly adjusted front bearings, king pins/thrust bearings/bushings, etc.

[AKsportcoupe]

Should the toe-in be adjusted with the tires on the ground, or spinning free on jackstands?

[Patrick L.]

Should the toe-in be adjusted with the tires on the ground, or spinning free on jackstands?


On the ground with a bit of outward pressure on the front of the wheels..

[marc hildebrant]

Patrick,

I adjusted the toe-in with the wheels off the ground. I measured the toe-in with both the wheels off/on the ground and in my case, the toe-in measured the same either way.

I used an adjustable bath rod for my measurements as I wanted to do the job myself. I'm sure that a better tool is available, but I used what I had on hand.

Marc

[Bob C]

Like Patrick said on the ground and roll the car forward about three feet.

Bob

[van Dyck]

Measuring toe-in from sidewall to sidewall is not accurate. A scribed line on the center tread on each tire provides the most accurate reference points to measure from. You need an assistant to hold one end of the measuring rod (trammel gauge) or steel tape measure while you take readings at the other end from the scribed line. 1/8th inch is enough toe-in for bias-ply tires, wheels on the ground.

[marc hildebrant]

With regard to the method and amount of toe-in :

I used the method shown in the Ford Service Notes for the Model A, and I used the last specification for the Model A. It seemed like the correct thing to do. Reference the info from Marco T's web site.

By the way, I went to a local garage first to check if they could measure the toe-in. I was told that it would cost about $85.00

At a Firestone Tire store, they told me that they would NOT service my Model A, as it was company policy NOT to work on Antique cars since the wheels may get damaged when they attach the mirrors for the measurement.

Marc

[Marco Tahtaras]

The link below is a page I put up 14 years ago explaining Ford's methodology as well as other options. It's important to roll the car forward just prior to and during the measurement.

http://abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

[Napa Skip]

The following is extracted from “Model ‘A’ Ford Front End” by Dick Valot, mentioned in reply #9 above:

“1. Raise front tires off the ground.
2. Spin one tire while placing a chalk mark around the center of the tire tread.
3. Spin the tire again while holding a sharp object (an awl or nail) in the center of the chalk mark. [The object here is to create a thin reference line within the wider chalk mark.]
4. Mark the other front tire as in 2 and 3 above.
5. Place a short horizontal mark across the [circumferential] chalk mark on each tire.
6. Position both front tires so the horizontal marks on both tires are at the front of the car and in-line with the center of the hub caps. [Note: this equates to position “D” under the “How To Apply This Information Today” section of Marco Tahtaras’ web site and – as Marco points out – the revised toe-in specification of 1/16” +/- 1/32” (when taken at 6” off the floor) must be increased when the measurement is taken at a greater height off the floor such as suggested in this procedure.]
7. Measure the distance between both tires at the [intersection of the] horizontal and vertical cross marks.
8. Rotate the wheels to place the horizontal marks on the back side of the wheel(s) and measure the distance between both tires. The difference between this measurement and the measurement taken in step 7 is the toe-in.”

Comment: the reality is that – absent an off-set tool to make the step 8 measurement – most of us will probably try this with a steel tape and while the step 7 measurement is easy enough, the front radius rod will make obtaining the step 8 measurement very difficult. Again, as Marco points out, perhaps the easiest solution is to take the step 7 and 8 measurements at 6” off the floor (presuming the tires just clear the floor) and use the original toe-in of 1/16” +/- 1/32”.

The purpose of this reply was not to reiterate what is so well presented on Marco’s site but to provide greater detail on the chalk-and-scribe method.

And, in response to the closing question in the original post, I too have found that adjusting the toe-in has helped reduce wandering all over the road in my 1930 coupe (except for that introduced by whomever has their hands on the steering wheel…), even on the notoriously bad roads here in Napa CA (judged 2nd worst of any city in the Bay Area counties; I forget who got 1st, but it wasn’t Lake, Sonoma or Solano counties and that’s about as far afield as I venture in my Model A).

[marc hildebrant]

Napa Skip,

Thanks for the information. The steps seem to be very similar to those of Lew Andrews in his Vol 1 book.

Marc

[Mike]

Good morning,

MAKE SURE TO SERVICE TIRES TO 35 P.S.I. BEFORE STARTING FRONT END ALLIGNMENT.

MIKE

[AKsportcoupe]

I'm reading a couple of things here. So after making the marks by spinning the tires and using chalk, we should then lower the tires back onto the ground, and move them forward a few feet to do the actual toe-in measuring?