Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-02-2014, 07:42 PM   #1
Quigley1930
Senior Member
 
Quigley1930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Middleburg, Virginia
Posts: 421
Default Leaking coil

I have had a hard time starting my truck recently and noticed a lack of power at higher speeds. Today my son noticed oil dripping from the coil. Would this be a cause for my troubles and what would cause the coil to start leaking? I will pick up a new coil at Brattons on Monday.

Sewall Tyler
Quigley1930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 09:03 PM   #2
stewwolfe
Senior Member
 
stewwolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Chesterfield, VA
Posts: 292
Default Re: Leaking coil

Probably yes. Once the coil starts leaking it's done for. Put another coil in and you should see the starting and performance improve.
__________________
'31 40B
'31 68C
stewwolfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-02-2014, 09:43 PM   #3
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Original coils were tar filled. Oil filled coils that were used on later model cars were mounted with the tower and wire connections pointing upward. When oil filled coils are mounted with the wire connections pointed downward as the original model A coils were mounted, they will often leak oil out the tower, overheat and begin to fail. I've pointed out this fact here many ,many times. The oil in the oil filled coils is for the purpose of cooling the inner windings. Most replacement coils are oil filled and are also weaker than the original model A coil. I don't mind saying as I have said many, many times before that I use the epoxy filled Pertronix flamethrower coil. This is a performance coil that scares hell out of many. It does however make a noticable improvement in performance, instant starts and clean running spark plugs. Coils are rated in ohm . Six volt applications use a 1.5 ohm coil. Twelve volt applications use a 3.0 ohm version. Neither of these coils need an external resister. Its the coil that fires the spark plugs. Weak replacement coils usually give weak performance and sooty spark plugs and most will tell you that you are running too rich. Weak ignition usually gets blamed on the carburetor. The original slant pole coils were around 20.000 volt. the Flame thrower coils are rated at 40.000 volts and make a difference that can be felt in the seat of the pants.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 10:24 PM   #4
Smog Tech
Senior Member
 
Smog Tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arcadia, CA
Posts: 129
Default Re: Leaking coil

Purdy, what is the model number of your Pertronic coil?
Smog Tech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 10:59 PM   #5
Benson
Senior Member
 
Benson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central Highlands, Cen~Col
Posts: 1,749
Default Re: Leaking coil

The oil may contain PCBs, a toxic component of the oil depending upon when it was manufactured. Prior to 1979 it says in the article.

IBM told us to avoid contact with oil from any transformer , capacitor and etc... any electrical device of unknown date of manufacture that contained oil for cooling.

http://www.epa.gov/epawaste/hazard/tsd/pcbs/about.htm



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quigley1930 View Post
I have had a hard time starting my truck recently and noticed a lack of power at higher speeds. Today my son noticed oil dripping from the coil. Would this be a cause for my troubles and what would cause the coil to start leaking? I will pick up a new coil at Brattons on Monday.

Sewall Tyler
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 06:50 AM   #6
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 4,828
Default Re: Leaking coil

The Petronix coil number is 40111 for the 6v 1.5 ohm model.

As Purdy says, an oil coil will not work for long when mounted upside down. I found that out the hard way decades ago on a VW.



PCBs ? We don't need to worry about no sticking PCBs. The transformer blew up in our local DMV office years ago. Our 'stuffed shirt ' governor at the time said there was nothing to worry about and that he'd come and drink a glass full of PCBs and that the office could be kept open. Of course, since a politician said so, it must be true.
He was challenged and the office was closed for years.

Last edited by Patrick L.; 08-03-2014 at 06:56 AM.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 08:42 AM   #7
Quigley1930
Senior Member
 
Quigley1930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Middleburg, Virginia
Posts: 421
Default Re: Leaking coil

Thanks everyone. Purdy, I now remember you talking about this recently but the memory just ain't what she used to be. I assume you can mount the Pertronix coil with the wire connections pointed down.

Sewall Tyler
Quigley1930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 09:11 AM   #8
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog Tech View Post
Purdy, what is the model number of your Pertronic coil?
Smog Tech , The box that my coil came in says part# 40611 EPOXY (3.0 OHM) This is the 12 volt version . The 6 volt version will have a different number but will be 1.5 OHM. Most good parts houses can get them. I got mine from Eastwood. I got a JC whitney catalog the other day and see that they now list them but would probably take longer to get. Several others that post here use the 6 volt version and will know the part # .
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 09:41 AM   #9
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quigley1930 View Post
Thanks everyone. Purdy, I now remember you talking about this recently but the memory just ain't what she used to be. I assume you can mount the Pertronix coil with the wire connections pointed down.

Sewall Tyler
Sewall, Yes the epoxy version can be mounted the same as an original model A coil. If you decide to try one of these fine coils, be sure to get the epoxy filled version. Pertronix offers two 40.000 volt oil filled versions that shouldn't be mounted in the original manner. There is also a 45.000 volt version for electronic ignition. Take note that these coils will become warm to the touch but will really be no problem. People that probably never touched a coil after a long run will be frightened by this fact. Some that use the V8 points and condenser will automatically asume that the coil is the problem when the crappy V8 condenser or points fail. Running at high rpm or with wide spark plug gaps can cause the coil to get hotter but none of this has been a problem for me. I've run my flame thrower coil for 8 going on 9 years with no problems. All coils get hotter on long runs or higher rpm anyway. The coil delivers the spark to the spark plugs. WhenThe spark comes quicker as in higher rpm it is only natural that the coil will get hotter. Pertronix will tell you this fact if asked. I only use mine with original style points and the A&L short proof condenser that is also offered by Brattons and Snyders. I hope this info will be helpfull.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 09:56 AM   #10
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Benson and Patrick make a good point about PCBs . I have also read this info before and its just another good reason to avoid oil filled coils if possible. When I use to run Holly, not Holley bee hive 30.000 volt coils, they had a thin plastic housing that would easilly crack and the oil would leak out. I've got the oil on my hands before but quickly washed it off first with lacquer thinner and then soapy water. It probably didn't help me but hasn't killed me yet. I would still recommend to avoid any contact if at all possioble.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #11
jmeckel
Senior Member
 
jmeckel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Luck WI
Posts: 549
Default Re: Leaking coil

Epoxy filled, 1.5 ohm for 6 volt system is part number is 40111. I found the best price when I purchased mine from Amazon. I see they are $36.53 with free shipping now on Amazon. Be careful on the part number as the oil filled one has a part number of 40011.
__________________
Jon

"If you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice!" RUSH

Don't tell me what you know..... Tell me what you have done.
jmeckel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 10:12 AM   #12
old_iron
Junior Member
 
old_iron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 11
Default Re: Leaking coil

It looks like JEGs has the epoxy version for $41 shipped: http://www.jegs.com/i/Pertronix/751/...oductId=748932
old_iron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 10:18 AM   #13
P.S.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 1,483
Default Re: Leaking coil

Ignition coils get hot due to the current flowing though them while the points are closed. That heat has to be dissipated somehow to prevent the primary wire from becoming hot enough to open like a blown fuse. Oil is used in transformers as a vehicle to move the heat from the wire turns to the case where it can be removed by whatever means. The reason your coil clamps are so wide is because they are supposed to transfer the heat from the coil case to the clamp and (in the case of the Model A), to the firewall.

The idea of using epoxy instead of oil is troublesome. Epoxy, like oil, is not an electrical conductor, so it can be used between windings of a coil without shorting them. However, epoxy is not as good of a thermal conductor as oil, so less heat can be removed from the wire windings and transfered to the case. Even the Pertronix website mentions that the epoxy filled coils are for certain uses, one of which not mentioned is inside the very hot engine compartment of a Ford Model A. I would be concerned about the longevity of an epoxy filled ignition coil in hot climates.
P.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 11:02 AM   #14
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

The epoxy version is the coil that was recommended for me . The original model A coil wasn't oil filled but was a solid type tar filled coil which in my thought is similiar to a solid epoxy filled coil. All of the original slant pole tar filled model A coils that I have ever tested or used still work perfectly even after more than eighty years. It is hot under the hood of all cars, especially newer cars that run at highere temps than the model A . Model A's that are running with improper timing and gaps will have problems , no matter what coil is used. Its always easy to blame the coil when other problems exist . Higher performance V8 engines that will turn high rpm would probably be better off with an oil filled version that would be mounted with tower pointing upward. No harm meant, just thought this needed to be pointed out. Pertronix will gladly explain and recommend the proper coil for the application. People with a closed mind in regard to performance coils would be better of using a standard replacement coil for their own peace of mind .
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 11:16 AM   #15
Smog Tech
Senior Member
 
Smog Tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arcadia, CA
Posts: 129
Default Re: Leaking coil

Purdy and Jon. Thanks for the Perstronix Coil part numbers.
Rick
Smog Tech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 09:38 PM   #16
29er
Senior Member
 
29er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 462
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
.... Flame thrower coils are rated at 40.000 volts and make a difference that can be felt in the seat of the pants.
Oh, thank Heaven!! I thought I was having an issue with my Depends!
29er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2014, 11:54 AM   #17
ursus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 938
Default Re: Leaking coil

Purdy, if you run the Pertronix 6-volt on a stock system do you need to use different points and condenser?
ursus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2014, 12:22 PM   #18
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Ursus,

You can use either of the Pertronix coils with either original or V8 points, it really makes no difference. I just prefer the original points because they are easier to adjust and time and have been more durable in my case. The pertronix coils don't care what points that are used. They even have a 45.000 volt version for use with electronic ignition.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2014, 01:30 PM   #19
29er
Senior Member
 
29er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 462
Default Re: Leaking coil

Here's a link to a recent discussion of the Pertronix Flame Thrower coil:

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ighlight=40111

To paraphrase H.L. Chauvin from that thread the Flame Thrower "will burn the hair off a rat 10 feet deep in water".

My own experience with the #40111 has been superb. I changed from the "modern" distributor setup to the original points, condenser and lower plate at the time I installed the #40111 epoxy-filled Pertronix coil. And, as suggested by Purdy elsewhere, gapped the sparklers at 0.035 and the points at 0.022. I've driven over 1,000 miles as an experiment with this setup and couldn't be more satisfied with the performance of my coupe.

Thanks for the tip, Purdy!

Last edited by 29er; 08-04-2014 at 03:25 PM.
29er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2014, 03:00 PM   #20
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

29er , Thanks for the mention!!! I'm glad to hear that it worked for you. I know that I love mine!!!!!!!
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2014, 03:59 PM   #21
mngreen
Senior Member
 
mngreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
Posts: 131
Default Re: Leaking coil

Another satisfied customer here....

Used the #40611 EPOXY (3.0 OHM) for my 12V system. Combined with W18 Champion plugs and a Model B distributor cam (from Stipe) on my otherwise stock setup, my cold start-ups are almost instantaneous! Lowered my idle speed also.

Like Purdy says, these coils get hot while running. They are internally resisted so the heat needs to dissipate somewhere. No problem!
mngreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2014, 07:32 PM   #22
BILL WILLIAMSON
Senior Member
 
BILL WILLIAMSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: FRESNO, CA
Posts: 12,480
Default Re: Leaking coil

"MAYBE" oil filled coils have a minute vent???
An old 12 volt Dodge P.U. DIED on a friend of mine. He mistakenly put on a 6 volt, oil filled coil, it had spark that would curl your hair! Three days later, it EXPLODED like a grenade with copper fuzz & oil EVERYWHERE! Sounds like something I might have done when I worked in a Wreckin' Yard, except, there were NO 12 VOLT cars then.
Bill W.
__________________
"THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"
BILL WILLIAMSON is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-06-2014, 09:11 PM   #23
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

A ballast resister may have helped. In most cases a six volt coil on 12 volts without a resistor would would burn the points. I hope he wasn't standing over it when it happened !!! just don''t know. Yer brother Purdy.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 12:02 PM   #24
BILL WILLIAMSON
Senior Member
 
BILL WILLIAMSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: FRESNO, CA
Posts: 12,480
Default Re: Leaking coil

Purdy, he didn't even know what a resistor was?? He just grabbed an old, unknown coil & poked it on! It blew up while he was driving & blew SO much smoke, he thought it was AFIRE!
OH! just loaned my 1/8" meat cleaver wedges to a new friend to get the head off a Smith's Compressor, popped right off! Ron's been drilling & soaking studs for a week! He's building a speedster. I tole him to use Walmart multi-grade oel!
Bill W.
__________________
"THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"
BILL WILLIAMSON is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 02:18 PM   #25
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
Purdy, he didn't even know what a resistor was?? He just grabbed an old, unknown coil & poked it on! It blew up while he was driving & blew SO much smoke, he thought it was AFIRE!
OH! just loaned my 1/8" meat cleaver wedges to a new friend to get the head off a Smith's Compressor, popped right off! Ron's been drilling & soaking studs for a week! He's building a speedster. I tole him to use Walmart multi-grade oel!
Bill W.
Yo Bill,
I'm glad it wasn't on far !!! I had one of my model A's burn in the driveway back in 62 but I managed to bring it back to life. A leaking gasket on the glass type sediment bowl caused the far .

The Walmart multi grade works good fer me, its actually Mobil . Why pay more when you ain't gotta ?

Yer brother, Purdy S.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 05:23 PM   #26
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 4,828
Default Re: Leaking coil

Looking at the Summit Racing on-line catalog.
They have the Petronix 40111 coil for $36.95[?] with free shipping.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 07:10 PM   #27
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Thats a good deal!!! I paid over forty dollars in 05 from Eastwood plus shipping.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 05:52 AM   #28
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 4,828
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Thats a good deal!!! I paid over forty dollars in 05 from Eastwood plus shipping.




I kinda thought so too, so I figured I would post it. But, the price was 36.97 and not the 36.95 I posted.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 10:00 AM   #29
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Thats close enough!!! Still a great price. Thanks for posting the info, I'll probably buy my next coil from them.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2014, 05:35 PM   #30
fiddlybits
Senior Member
 
fiddlybits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N Illinois
Posts: 447
Default Re: Leaking coil

Had a 40111 flamethrower on shelf andnever thought to put it on the A.

Well, just got back from 40 mile test drive and the car is 5 my faster. On the two stretches of straight flat road that I use the GPS would average 58 mph for a combine run in both directions but withe the flamethrower it averaged 66. (Full throttle, full advance, wireless lower, stock point and condenser. 0.035, 0.025, 0.020)

Even the idle is smoother.

Last edited by fiddlybits; 08-09-2014 at 08:50 PM.
fiddlybits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 09:13 AM   #31
Roadster Rich
Senior Member
 
Roadster Rich's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta)
Posts: 272
Default Re: Leaking coil

I am in need of a new coil. This flamethrower sounds like a smart move. Right now I am using an electronic distributor, but plan to rebuild my original sometime. Can I buy the 40111 at 40,000 volts and use with the electronic ingnition, or should I buy the 45,000 volt one, and then change when I get the distributor rebuilt?
Roadster Rich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:16 AM   #32
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

I don't know, because I only have experience with the 40.000 volt coils. It would be best to first call and ask the guys at Pertronix.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:24 AM   #33
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Another advantage of the Flame thrower coil is that more complete burning of the fuel in the combustion chamber, not only results in more power that you can feel but you don't get raw gas in the muffler that can sometimes go off like a cannon , seconds after the switch is cut off. My roadster, even with two carburetors has never backfired after shut off.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 10:51 AM   #34
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 4,828
Default Re: Leaking coil

It only takes what it takes/needs. Most older coils are good for about 20,000v which is just fine for most occasions. These engines will use maybe 16-18K under most hard conditions. I have a feeling that many of these old worn out coils may have a hard time putting out what is needed or 16,17K, and, some of them may have oil in them that just hasn't decided to fall out yet.
That said, I subscribe to the more is better theory. Therefore, I think 40K is more better than a paltry 20K. And, the price ain't bad.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 11:10 AM   #35
Y-Blockhead
Senior Member
 
Y-Blockhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 3,707
Default Re: Leaking coil

Be careful which Pertronix coil you get. Some are oil filled, some epoxy.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/b...nition%20Coils
__________________
Y-Blockhead
'30 Briggs Town Sedan
_________________________________
And once again that is just my 1 worth.
Y-Blockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 11:35 AM   #36
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,838
Default Re: Leaking coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
It only takes what it takes/needs. Most older coils are good for about 20,000v which is just fine for most occasions. These engines will use maybe 16-18K under most hard conditions. I have a feeling that many of these old worn out coils may have a hard time putting out what is needed or 16,17K, and, some of them may have oil in them that just hasn't decided to fall out yet.
That said, I subscribe to the more is better theory. Therefore, I think 40K is more better than a paltry 20K. And, the price ain't bad.
I agree that 20.000 volts would be good for most and that is about the rating of the original tar filled slant pole model A coil, even after more than 80 years in most cases. My experience with most replacement oil filled coils is that they will have difficulty jumping a 10.000 volt gap, with my tester if everything in the distributor isn't up to perfect specs. In many cases,even if an oil filled coil isn't leaking, the oil doesn't completely cover the inner windings when the coil is mounted in the usual model A manner. If a person prefers an oil filled coil, the Pertronix oil filled Flame throwers will perform great if mounted with the tower and wire connections pointing upward, it just wont look right.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.