How to tell if a '40 was business or 5 window coupe

[50fordcoupeman]

Is there a way to tell the business coupe from a 5 window coupe? VIN number perhaps?
Thank you in advance.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 50fordcoupeman

Is there a way to tell the business coupe from a 5 window coupe? VIN number perhaps?
Thank you in advance.

VIN numbers don't tell much of anything other than an approximate date of manufacture.

If it has a package tray and a solid back rest, it's a coupe.
If it is a business coupe, it'll have a split back rest and a pair of small auxiliary seats directly behind the front seat.
If the interior is absent, there are still tells. Floor pans are different as is the bracing in the rear area - behind the front seat.
If you need photos of the floor(s) and / or bracing, let me know.

[drolston]

The term "Business Coupe" is generic, referring to a car designed for a salesman, not for passengers. No frills. No back seat. The term "Sedan Coupe" came about 1941 when Ford made the narrow door "Business" coupe with no back seat and added the wide door "Sedan" coupe. From 1946 on, I think all coupes had the back seat.


From 1932 through 1936 you could get a 3-window coupe or a 5-window coupe with the rear quarter windows. I never have learned why. Maybe just to save a little sheet metal and glass for the 3-window.



So the Business Coupe term is really not related to 3-window versus 5-window. And the so-called VIN numbers on early Fords are not traceable to an exact body configuration like they are in modern cars. The numbers were more of a frame number.

[DavidG]

No, they are engine numbers stamped on to the frame when the engine is installed a chassis, not "frame numbers". As since Mike wrote book on '40s, it is highly likely, in fact virtually guaranteed, that his definition of a '40 business coupe is correct rather than the other way around.

[50fordcoupeman]

Originally Posted by Kube

VIN numbers don't tell much of anything other than an approximate date of manufacture.

If it has a package tray and a solid back rest, it's a coupe.
If it is a business coupe, it'll have a split back rest and a pair of small auxiliary seats directly behind the front seat.
If the interior is absent, there are still tells. Floor pans are different as is the bracing in the rear area - behind the front seat.
If you need photos of the floor(s) and / or bracing, let me know.

Thank you. This car has been "upgraded". The back seat has had a bench seat installed, no package tray. The only reason why I am asking is that the Early Ford V8 Club Of America Album lists "deluxe business coupe" and "deluxe 5 window coupe" as separate units but gives no other pertinent information.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Interestingly, this YouTube video just popped-up, and although not necessarily answering the main question of this thread, it is about a '40 Standard coupe. The guy involved in the video manages to show some pretty good details of the car, with something possibly near 97% accuracy. Pretty good little video. Click the link BELOW!

Coop

https://youtu.be/pg93mKX4sjQ


.

[deuce_roadster]

I have a 40 V8 (often called standard) business coupe and it is exactly as Mike describes. I would not challenge Kube's description of anything pertaining a 40 Ford.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

I have a 40 V8 (often called standard) business coupe and it is exactly as Mike describes. I would not challenge Kube's description of anything pertaining a 40 Ford.

And an exceptionally fine example it is.... completely restored by Mike ("deuce_roadster") himself.

Coop

[Ken/Alabama]

Here’s what the 1940 Dealer album has to say about it.

[JayChicago]

I think some confusion stems from the terminology Ford used. (And Kube is a purist, of course he follows the "correct" Ford terminology)

Ford called the coupe with the back seats a business coupe. But most guys in the hobby consider a business coupe to be one with a storage compartment, no back seat. The storage compartment was for the businessman's samples/supplies.

I think Ford's terminology was backward. But we can't alter history. That's what Ford called it.

[50fordcoupeman]

Thanks to all of you for the information. I just didnt know which model I have and the V8 Album actually makes it more confusing to me. Please don't any of you think I am refuting any of the info you have shared. Thank you all!!

[Mart]

What we can agree on is that any 40 Ford coupe is "the business".

[50fordcoupeman]

Originally Posted by Mart

What we can agree on is that any 40 Ford coupe is "the business".

Right on Mart!!

[37fatfender]

Is the seat arrangement as defined by Kube the same for Standard and Deluxe models?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 37fatfender

Is the seat arrangement as defined by Kube the same for Standard and Deluxe models?

yes.

[deuce_roadster]

My belief is that:
All Business coupes have the same seats regardless V8 (standard) or Deluxe
All non Business coupes have the same bench seat/shelf whether V8 or Deluxe.
The seat covering material might have been different between them.
Kube will correct me if I am incorrect.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

My belief is that:
All Business coupes have the same seats regardless V8 (standard) or Deluxe
All non Business coupes have the same bench seat/shelf whether V8 or Deluxe.
The seat covering material might have been different between them.
Kube will correct me if I am incorrect.

Good morning!

There were in fact differences in upholstery materials offered as standard installation between the Ford V8 and Deluxe models. However, the Deluxe materials were available, at an additional cost, for the V8 model cars.

[blucar]

A possible interesting side-bar to: "Is it a coupe or is it a business coupe". In 1954 I was living in Las Vegas, a good friend of mine bought a excellent un-molested '40 Ford Deluxe coupe from an auction that the local Ford dealer had to clear out impounded vehicle that had accumulated for many years. The car had two side facing 'jump' seats behind the front seat, the seats could be folded up out of the way.
For some unknown reason during the mid to late '40's the side facing and/or front facing foldable seats became known as 'Opera' seats in sales ad's, probably due to their simularity to aux foldable seating in Opera Boxes.
The majority of the Business Coupe manufactured by companies other than Ford had a hard elevated platform behind the split seat. As a general rule the fuel tank was located under the platform with the fuel fill located in the right quarter panel above the running board. Moving the fuel tank from under the truck area allowed for additional room in the trunk with the spare tire laying flat in a well under a wooden platform.
Starting in 1940 most coupes were five windows, generally, with the exception of Ford, the coupe quarter window slid open to the rear.
I have owned several true Business Coupes, 1940-48, none of which had sliding rear quarter windows.
I had a friend for several years that had a '49 Business Coupe, platform behind the front split bench seat, My friend cloned the car into a club coupe, moving the fuel tank to under the trunk. He did not bother to change the quarter windows to sliders.

[djweaz]

Originally Posted by Kube

VIN numbers don't tell much of anything other than an approximate date of manufacture.

If it has a package tray and a solid back rest, it's a coupe.
If it is a business coupe, it'll have a split back rest and a pair of small auxiliary seats directly behind the front seat.
If the interior is absent, there are still tells. Floor pans are different as is the bracing in the rear area - behind the front seat.
If you need photos of the floor(s) and / or bracing, let me know.

Hi I’m looking for pictures for the different floor pans to show somebody else. I had pictures before and lost them

[Kube]

I have included a few photos that may help. The pans were radically different between the two models.
A couple of other "tells" are the support braces in the trunk. Note the business coupe braces are rather short compared to the coupe.
Also note the spare tire braces are very different between the two body styles. The business coupe had a pair of vertical braces. The coupe braces are diagonal.
If you double click on the photos, you will then see the title to that photo.

[V8 Bob]

There were at least two '40 5-window coupe rear trunk brace designs. My early build has short side braces to the top of the wheel wells, similar to the business coupe.


I'm 99% sure the main difference between the business and 5 window coupe floor pan is how they were assembled, with the placement of the "L" shaped full width step panel leading to the trunk. If mine was flipped, the cabin floor would be extended and trunk floor shortened, just like a business coupe. The spare tire support would obviously have to be moved back as well, and adding an additional vertical support would complete the transformation to a business coupe.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

There were at least two '40 5-window coupe rear trunk brace designs. My early build has short side braces to the top of the wheel wells, similar to the business coupe.


I'm 99% sure the main difference between the business and 5 window coupe floor pans is the placement of the "L" shaped full width step panel leading to the trunk. If mine was flipped, the cabin floor would be extended and trunk floor shortened, just like a business coupe. The spare tire support would obviously have to be moved back as well, and adding an additional vertical support would complete the transformation to a business coupe.

You are correct in that there were two designs of body braces in the coupe. However, both were diagonal.
The business coupe always had one design, that being the very short diagonal braces to the wheel "well". Also, it always had the vertical spare tire braces.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

There were at least two '40 5-window coupe rear trunk brace designs. My early build has short side braces to the top of the wheel wells, similar to the business coupe.


I'm 99% sure the main difference between the business and 5 window coupe floor pan is how they were assembled, with the placement of the "L" shaped full width step panel leading to the trunk. If mine was flipped, the cabin floor would be extended and trunk floor shortened, just like a business coupe. The spare tire support would obviously have to be moved back as well, and adding an additional vertical support would complete the transformation to a business coupe.

[V8 Bob]

Thank you Petehoovie for the bigger picture! I know clicking on one will enlarge, but how did you post it larger?
Bob

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

Thank you Petehoovie for the bigger picture! I know clicking on one will enlarge, but how did you post it larger?
Bob

See > https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...&postcount=649

[Kube]

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[QUOTE=V8 Bob;2452012]There were at least two '40 5-window coupe rear trunk brace designs. My early build has short side braces to the top of the wheel wells, similar to the business coupe.


As a side note, the short braces were redesigned fairly early into 1940 production.
Why? They did not offer enough torsional support and all too soon cracks were showing up where they were spot welded to the inner fender.

[Kube]

I'm 99% sure the main difference between the business and 5 window coupe floor pan is how they were assembled, with the placement of the "L" shaped full width step panel leading to the trunk. If mine was flipped, the cabin floor would be extended and trunk floor shortened, just like a business coupe. The spare tire support would obviously have to be moved back as well, and adding an additional vertical support would complete the transformation to a business coupe.[/QUOTE]
I'd fully restored a number of coupes and can tell you definitively the pans are a lot more different than you might think / envision.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by petehoovie

See > https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...&postcount=649

Thank you.

[V8 Bob]

[/QUOTE]
I'd fully restored a number of coupes and can tell you definitively the pans are a lot more different than you might think / envision.[/QUOTE]


Mike, I'm sure you're correct, but it would be great if comparative pictures were available to show the differences.


Bob

[Kube]

I'd fully restored a number of coupes and can tell you definitively the pans are a lot more different than you might think / envision.[/QUOTE]


Mike, I'm sure you're correct, but it would be great if comparative pictures were available to show the differences.


Bob[/QUOTE]

I agree Bob.
The problem is, I didn't have any good photos to post of a business coupe floor.
I'd restored so many coupes, well, I guess I got lazy in the later years and stopped taking a lot of photographs.
I could quite literally do a coupe or convertible restoration by memory.
Of course, that was when I had a decent memory.
The photograph attached is the last business coupe I'd restored.

[V8 Bob]

[/QUOTE
I agree Bob.
The problem is, I didn't have any good photos to post of a business coupe floor.
I'd restored so many coupes, well, I guess I got lazy in the later years and stopped taking a lot of photographs.
I could quite literally do a coupe or convertible restoration by memory.
Of course, that was when I had a decent memory.
The photograph attached is the last business coupe I'd restored.[/QUOTE]


Mike, You have invested so much time and effort restoring '40s, along with writing the best informative book on '40 Fords to date, that it's totally understandable a detail or two would be missed or overlooked. Thank you.


If I ever come across photographs of the different coupe floors I'll post them.
Bob