Seat Belt Installation

[John Stone]

I read the posts about how seat belts should be in all Model A's but please leave the opinions in the other thread.

Now the question: How do you attach the belts in the center of the floor pan cars? (400A, Vicky, 2Dr Phaeton) I have been thinking about it for a number of years but have never come up with what I thought would be structurally sound enough to handle the stress of 2 people in an accident. I have them in the back seat of my 400A (you know for the grandkids).

I have seat belts in my 29 Roadster. Put a piece of angle iron across under the body for attach points.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

John, you said to leave opinions in the other thread but you are asking a very controvercial question.

I will ask the question this way back to you. How strong do you think that floor pan is that is nailed (tacked) to wooden subrails?

Next question, in a roll over, what is the G force of the combined weight of the two passengers, ...and will the sheetmetal floor pan withstand that kind of sudden force?

And finally, is it possible the seat belts would give a false sense of security to a passenger?

.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

John, you said to leave opinions in the other thread but you are asking a very controvercial question.

I will ask the question this way back to you. How strong do you think that floor pan is that is nailed (tacked) to wooden subrails?

Next question, in a roll over, what is the G force of the combined weight of the two passengers, ...and will the sheetmetal floor pan withstand that kind of sudden force?

And finally, is it possible the seat belts would give a false sense of security to a passenger?

.

That is why I am asking, not telling. I believe there has to be a lot of reinforcing done. The floor pan is not strong enough. I am hoping someone has a solution.

[Dennis L Oberer]

Yes it could give a false sense of security..

.in the accident the passenger might have time to weigh the odds of whether his seat belt will protect him as it should or take the chances of being ejected.

And then they could decide to unbuckle it if they did feel a false sense of security.

Great logic

Incredible.......

Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI

[Jim Brierley]

I ran a piece of 1/4"x2" angle iron from side-to-side that is bolted to the frame, then bolted the belts to it.

[John Stone]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

I ran a piece of 1/4"x2" angle iron from side-to-side that is bolted to the frame, then bolted the belts to it.

Did you run the angle iron below the floor pan? Was it attached to the lower frame flange? The center is really close to the drive shaft on my car.

[Tom Endy]

On my Vic I attached both center belts to the steel plate the front seat pegs rest on. Since the plate is only bolted to wood I added another brace under the car from the plate to the cross member. The two outside belts are attched to the body to frame bolts just behind the front seats. I don't have seat belts for the rear seat.

I have heard all the arguments about the wisdom of not attaching belts to the frame in case the body separates ftom the frame in a crash. However, my concern is the ejection factor. The passenger seat belt is more to prevent the passenger from tumbling out the door in a left turn if the door unlatches.

Any crash in a Model A where the body separates from the frame you are more than likely going to be killed anyway.

Tom Endy

[mkmskm]

I installed belts in my Tudor primarily because the door on rare occassion pops loose using the same angle iron approach. Looking at the substructure of a Model A I think you have to drive them knowing that in a head on collision with a Hummer the belts will just keep the coroner from having to fetch your body from the ditch.

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

Has anyone put shoulder belts in a two door car?

[denis4x4]

I use 2" channel iron bolted to the frame. There was a piece in Street Rodder on putting shoulder belts in a tudor. Do a search on the HAMB as I think it was also posted there.

[Glenn C.]

Seat belt installation for some of the Model A's can be quite challenging to obtain strong anchor points. It is much easier to decide on mounting locations while the body is off the frame and to pre-fit the support steel. The important object here is to install a length of 2" channel iron across the frame from body mounting bolts.
The center fastening point for the belts can be affixed to this same piece of steel.
Use grade 8 bolts to replace the original body mounting bolts, and to fasten the belts to the channel iron.

I am not sure about all insurance policies, so I can't comment on that, but I do know that most provinces and states, really don't give a darn whether the vehicle originally came out with seat belts or not, other than in this day and age the vehicle that you are riding in, is equiped with seat belts. ( you may want to contest the law in the courts)

[jerry shook]

I had belts in my 31 4/D when i was rear ended by two teen age girls texing on there phone .knock me into the car i was waiting on to turn left.totaled all 3 cars , with my seat belt on the back of the seat broke and i was laying backward ,if the seat had not broke it would have broke my neck. I wear seat belts every time i travel . they are not full prof but enough to wear them.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Dennis L Oberer

Yes it could give a false sense of security..

.in the accident the passenger might have time to weigh the odds of whether his seat belt will protect him as it should or take the chances of being ejected.

And then they could decide to unbuckle it if they did feel a false sense of security.

Great logic

Incredible.......

Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI

Dennis, I seemingly always get a little 'heartburn' after you have posted a comment regarding something I've said.


I will say it again for clarification, when someone has installed seat belts in something that might be inadequately installed (i.e.: installing them to a piece of angle iron that was bolted to a pan that is nailed onto a piece of wood using brads), ...does an unknowing passenger buckle up thinking they are safe during an accident or severe impact?

I think they can, ...and do think they feel they are safe! This is why I will not professionally install seat belts in any vehicle at my shop that did not come equipped from the factory with them! And, --it is not that we do not know how. It's because the liability is too great in this litigious society. I deal with many hobbyist on a daily basis that are very intelligent individuals but when it comes to matters such as this, they are naive with regard to many things that many of us here just take for granted. It's not their fault or meant as a way to belittle them, it is just facts based on my experiences, ...your mileage may vary!!



BTW, I am not suggesting that someone not wear seatbelts, ...I'm only suggesting that people who install them need to be certain they are are installing them properly to avoid legal issues.

.

[Kevin in NJ]

The wood silled A does not have great structure to handle seatbelts.

From a physic standpoint the seatbelts are there to absorb energy. If they pull loose the still held you in place for a fraction of a second and with any luck long enough to prevent really bad injuries. In any event, it is all about statistics. Odds are much better that that the accident will be lower speed and in front of you. So just about any seatbelt tied to reasonable structure will at least do something. The reasonable structure being something other then the seat frame.

That being said.

Consider the structure. You have a pretty strong piece of wood under the seats. It is even stronger front to rear. So if you set up so the seatbelt will pull forward and up then you are going to put the force on a diagonal on the wood. That is the strongest point. If you have a substantial chunk of metal going rearward to another structure point you have now divided the forces.

Will it handle the forces of a 60 MPH head on? It does not matter, you are pretty screwed in the A. Cruising along having fun at 40 MPH the will do a lot to hold you in place.



Seatbelts in a cabriolet

[John Kuhnast]

I agree with Brent. I have seat and shoulder belts in my closed cab pickup.If and when I sell the truck I will first remove the belts for the very reasion he stated.

[Bruce Adams]

I ran 2 inch angle iron side to side attached to the frame, THEN I ran perforated steel aft too another frame member, running the seat belt attachment with grade 8 bolts through the angle iton, with the longitudinal psp giving additional structure.
This on my S/W 68C.

You can't ignore opinions and suggestions?
Sometimes differing opinions help prevent errors.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... the liability is too great in this litigious society....

The very reason that you will never get installation instructions when you buy the belts from any of the Model A parts suppliers.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by mkmskm

I installed belts in my Tudor primarily because the door on rare occassion pops loose using the same angle iron approach. Looking at the substructure of a Model A I think you have to drive them knowing that in a head on collision with a Hummer the belts will just keep the coroner from having to fetch your body from the ditch.

Hmmm, "door pops loose"...in my Tudor!
Others here say same of other models also..yeah, seat belts might keep a person from 'sliding' out...another good thot why to have seat belts.
On a roadster, being more flexible than most models(having no top structure)same door thingy happens!
But, there are those HERE who will/have instructs you/me that THAT would never happen 'in a properly restored car'..yeah, right.
I knew a 'professional' restorer of over 100 model As, now deceased. He told me that model A doors will/did pop open...just depended on amount of flex the individual car was subject to. Soo, seat belts may be a good thing?

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by John Stone

Did you run the angle iron below the floor pan? Was it attached to the lower frame flange? The center is really close to the drive shaft on my car.

I ran a 1 1/2" angle iron under the frame and bolted down through the angle iron. Put spacers from my floor boards to the angle iron. Don't know if that is right or wrong but that is the way I did it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I believe maybe some of this advice has kinda gone "off-topic" here. Did I not read the initial question from Mr. Stone was how to install belts on a 400A (Convertible Sedan), a Victoria, or a DeLuxe Phaeton that has the floor pan? Allow me to post a picture showing what the floor pan looks like so some can see the differences between this body and others and why some of the comments might not apply very well...

.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I believe maybe some of this advice has kinda gone "off-topic" here. Did I not read the initial question from Mr. Stone was how to install belts on a 400A (Convertible Sedan), a Victoria, or a DeLuxe Phaeton that has the floor pan? Allow me to post a picture showing what the floor pan looks like so some can see the differences between this body and others and why some of the comments might not apply very well...

.

Thanks Brent for this post and the picture. I thought everyone knew the difference between the early to late Model A's but I was mistaken.

In all the above discussion, I think I got one real answer to the question. There is not an easy solution. I will have to just climb under my car and see what I can come up with. Do hate to do too much to the carpet.

Thanks again.
John

[1931 flamingo]

What holds the floor pan to the sub-frame. Years ago when I installed seat belts in my 32 coupe I used 3/8's steel plate abot 6'x6' under the floor pan and attached belts to the mounting studs. Things were simplier then and at age 16 really didn't do it for safety, it was "cool" back then I'd do something similar in your400A just to keep you in the car. JMO
Paul in CT

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

What holds the floor pan to the sub-frame. Years ago when I installed seat belts in my 32 coupe I used 3/8's steel plate abot 6'x6' under the floor pan and attached belts to the mounting studs. Things were simplier then and at age 16 really didn't do it for safety, it was "cool" back then I'd do something similar in your400A just to keep you in the car. JMO
Paul in CT

Thanks for the response but if I read your post right, that steel plate weighed over 500 lbs. Not sure I want to try to lift it.

[1931 flamingo]

John: My mistake, meant 6"x6" x3/8" thick. Sorry
Paul in CT

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

John: My mistake, meant 6"x6" x3/8" thick. Sorry
Paul in CT

The pan is held in by nails. Not something I would trust. However, I would trust the 6'X6' plate.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

John, to "chase a rabbit", it just dawned on me that the picture I posted of the car we restored is the same color combo as your car. Very stunning color in my views...

Something else, is your wood new or is it original? Why I am asking is do you think it would have bearing on the strength to hold the belt hardware?

.

[John Stone]

I do get a lot of nice comments about the color.

It has new wood.

I believe the side rails are stong enough with a big fender washer underneath but the center cross member under the seat might not be. There isn't a lot of room on the center seat rest plate. It looks like you would have to use the same bolt for both seat belts and then go through the floor pan at an angle to avoid the drive shaft and fashion some kind of bracket that is fastened to the center wood cross member. Of course it has to be reinforced in some manner probably with an angle iron going the full span and bolted to the side rails. In Wichita I can always find an aircraft stress engineer. They always like a challenge. Fastening directly to the floor pan is not the answer.

Oh yes, I have most of a set of used wood. Does anyone want it? All you have to do it pick it up.

[1931 flamingo]

I'm not that familiar with A400 floor (looks recessed, but best bet would (if possible) run a small "I-beam or double I-beam across and attach to the top frame rail from underneath, if you mount to the lower frame rail it's a stretch to where you can attach s/belt anchors, that's why i suggested floor pan. Is there a way to place a steel plate over the subrail portion (sandwich the subrail) in the area of floorpan and then install the s/belt plates. Of course the biggest problem (opportunity) is that yours is a finished car.
Paul in CT

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I'm not that familiar with A400 floor (looks recessed, but best bet would (if possible) run a small "I-beam or double I-beam across and attach to the top frame rail from underneath, if you mount to the lower frame rail it's a stretch to where you can attach s/belt anchors, that's why i suggested floor pan. Is there a way to place a steel plate over the subrail portion (sandwich the subrail) in the area of floorpan and then install the s/belt plates. Of course the biggest problem (opportunity) is that yours is a finished car.
Paul in CT

There just isn't a lot of room for reinforcing. You really need to look at both the top and the bottom to get an appreciation of the problem.

[ryan1929]

I can understand why you guys put seat belts in your cars down in the lower 48. The traffic is crazy and the drivers are nuts. I drive a Semi from Canada to Houston Every week. But up heer in canada the people are friendly and I will never put seat belts in my A it just ruins the originality.

[Jim Brierley]

John, I lied, the angle iron is what I put on my speedster. It stretches between the frame rails and is bolted to the underside of the top rail, there is plenty of drive shaft clearance. On the '30 tudor I merely bolted them to the existing body rail. It may not be the strongest place but I figure it would hold in most cases? At least it makes me feel secure.

[Clydes 31 P/U]

Just thinking around this seat belt problem of limited space between frame and floor pans for steel supports for the belt anchors. Would it be possible to use 2" webbing that is used for ratchet straps, doubled and bolted to frame on each side then bolted to floor pan at needed locations then bolt the seat belt through the floor pan and webbing? I've had the local canvas shop cut and shorten my tie down straps and resewn them and then would be possible to make plates like the body mount ends of seat belts for the lower strap to bolt to floor pan. I've seen people draw things and post them here but thats way beyond me. I hope I've gotten my thoughts across and not confused or confounded too many people...........Clyde

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Clydes 31 P/U

Just thinking around this seat belt problem of limited space between frame and floor pans for steel supports for the belt anchors. Would it be possible to use 2" webbing that is used for ratchet straps, doubled and bolted to frame on each side then bolted to floor pan at needed locations then bolt the seat belt through the floor pan and webbing? I've had the local canvas shop cut and shorten my tie down straps and resewn them and then would be possible to make plates like the body mount ends of seat belts for the lower strap to bolt to floor pan. I've seen people draw things and post them here but thats way beyond me. I hope I've gotten my thoughts across and not confused or confounded too many people...........Clyde

Interesting concept however when the seat belts come under load, the floor pan would just bend. The force is perpendicular to the pan and it needs to be restrained along the belt, not at right angles.

[barkleydave]

I recently obtained a 29 closed cab pickup. It is a beauty and is currently getting some minor upgrades at an Old School restoration shop. I asked about seat belts and I was advised that they DO NOT install them and that was the end of the discussion.

So as stated in other posts I seem to be on my own! I understand that belts need to be anchored to a frame member and not just to the body. Years ago I installed lap belts in a foreign sports car. Since it had a tunnel it was not difficult to secure them with the included hardware and large grade 8 bolts and shoulder washer.

Would like to hear how some may have installed lap belts in a pickup. I assume the frame and cross members might be different and even stronger?

thanks

[1931 flamingo]

WELCOME !
There is a liability issue on their part.
Do a "search", many, many threads on seat belts.
Paul in CT

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by ryan1929

I can understand why you guys put seat belts in your cars down in the lower 48. The traffic is crazy and the drivers are nuts. I drive a Semi from Canada to Houston Every week. But up heer in canada the people are friendly and I will never put seat belts in my A it just ruins the originality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgaZMSjhpH8

[Synchro909]

John Kuhnast. Pls check your PMs

[huddy]

I think what you need to keep in mind is that in what would be termed a "survivable" traffic collision (by modern auto standards, not antiques) the passenger can easily experience 15 to 30 g's of deceleration. This means that an average 170 pound adult will exert between 2,500 and 5,000 pounds of force on the restraint system for that short deceleration interval. If you are designing a restraint system (e.g. seatbelt) however you attach it and the associated structure should be able to withstand a ton or two of force. This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt but it might be a big problem for the structure it is attached to.


For the deceleration values, do a Google on "auto collison deceleration" and you'll get a bunch of references; I did a bit of Kentucky windage and averaged the range of numbers. By modern standards, I'm referring to cars that have "crush zones" and other protective design features that are missing from our antiques. The forces are likely worse in the older cars.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt"

I would think a 3/8" grade 8 bolt would be the minimum size anchor bolt.

[barkleydave]

I appreciate the input.... I am going to install lap belts. The discussion is interesting and no the cars were not engineered for them. The liability issue is the least of my concerns.

After spending 30 years in Law Enforcement... "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" stand out.

Now if the pan bends in a crash that will actually absorb some of the inertia of the crash and can be a plus. Lets face it nothing would help in a side impact of much speed (no beams in doors etc) and frontal or rear above 40 MPH will likely be fatal.

For me keeping one from being ejected through windshield or out an open door is all we can expect belts to do in our A's. That alone personally is enough to justify installation.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Yup. What barkleydave said.

[Tim B.]

John, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Just passing along some info. Noted you planned to use a common anchor point for center belts. Seat belts that I bought from a US manufacturer had a warning to not use a common bolt for the center belts.

Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

I appreciate the input.... I am going to install lap belts. The discussion is interesting and no the cars were not engineered for them. The liability issue is the least of my concerns.

After spending 30 years in Law Enforcement... "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" stand out.

Now if the pan bends in a crash that will actually absorb some of the inertia of the crash and can be a plus. Lets face it nothing would help in a side impact of much speed (no beams in doors etc) and frontal or rear above 40 MPH will likely be fatal.

For me keeping one from being ejected through windshield or out an open door is all we can expect belts to do in our A's. That alone personally is enough to justify installation.

Nicely Stated...

[Brother Hesekiel]

Believe it or not, I would LIKE to be catapulted out of an open A (or T) in case of an accident, as it happened when my Speedster went straight into a tree at about 25mph on Memorial Day 2012. Had my wife and I not been catapulted out of the car, I would have been killed in that accident, and most likely my wife as well. When being catapulted out, I have a 50/50 chance of winning the odds, in case I experience free flight. Losing the game happens when I hit something hard early. For the same reason motorcyclists spread their legs and let their bike go into the obstacle alone. Under racing conditions, even getting off the bike at triple-digit speeds doesn't mean horrible injuries. Injuries happen once you hit something hard. As barkleydave so appropriately stated, if we get T-boned or rear-ended at a speed of 40mph or more, it would be fatal, as our body would be smashed to a clump. I rather take my chances and fly out if at all possible. I don't want to be strapped into a death trap anymore that I would want to be strapped onto a motorcycle. But again, this only applies to an open car, not a closed one. I understand that belts or no belts is a very controversial subject, and unfortunately there is no one solution that fits all because we don't know what kind of accident we will be involved in.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

Even though not mentioned often, in my opinion, there appears that there are more agreements concerning seat belt installation rather than disagreements concerning "safety" every time someone discusses Model A seat belts.

Just a few of the agreements are, (maybe not in this order):

1. Model A's never had specific locations to attach modern front and/or rear seat belts.

2. Because of one (1) above & other factors, anybody who installs seat belts in a Model A is taking a liability risk because the original manufacturer never designed this vehicle to have seat belts installed in the first place.

3. Next, a few articles with photos indicated how seat belts were installed in a few "particular" Model A body structures; however, not all Model A bodies even closely resemble other Model A body structures, (i.e., some wood, some steel, etc.), & what "may" prevent an injury in one Model A body structure "may" totally fail with a different body structure.

4. Also mentioned is that not all possible accidents are alike, i.e., T-bone, rear end, front end collision, doors flying open, coupled with a Model A body that never was designed to meet today's vehicle impact safety standards, adds to this very complicated recommendation for seat belt installation.

5. Without even considering Model A structural forces, collision impact forces, & human body reaction to all forces, one must think carefully & first decide "if" one wants seat belts or not.

6. Lastly, the most satisfying responses individuals seem to share for installing seats belts always appears to be: "I DID IT MY WAY!" ........... & believe it or not, without being able to "see" exactly what was done, nobody feels 100% confident in a pro or con comment on same.

7. No. 5 above is important, & there are some articles on the internet for safely installing seat belts if one is interested -- just hope this helps if one is searching for the one & only, easy "single" manner to install seat belts in a Model A ...... it may never be written.

[CarlG]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

...anybody who installs seat belts in a Model A is taking a liability risk because the original manufacturer never designed this vehicle to have seat belts installed in the first place...

...if one is searching for the one & only, easy "single" manner to install seat belts in a Model A ...... it may never be written.

Liability is the main reason why you will never see an instruction sheet included with your seat belt purchase. It's pretty much "Install at your own risk" kind of thing.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Tim B.

John, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Just passing along some info. Noted you planned to use a common anchor point for center belts. Seat belts that I bought from a US manufacturer had a warning to not use a common bolt for the center belts.

Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim

Was this directed toward me? couldn't find another John in the posts.

I started this thread in 2010 and have since solved the problem. I did not use a common anchor point in the center. Ran 2 pieces of angle iron the length of the floor pan along the floor pan contour on either side of the drive shaft. That was a little tricky but it can be done with enough patience and talent in cutting out cardboard templates a few times. Installed the center seat belts with a 12" spacer so it is easy to latch. The side belts are self retracting. Makes a nice installation and my wife feels a little more secure. She is used to riding in the 29 roadster where your butt rests against the side of the body and not the door as in the 400A.

[huddy]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

"This is not a problem for the SAE 1/4-20 bolt fastening the seat belt"

I would think a 3/8" grade 8 bolt would be the minimum size anchor bolt.

Of course you're correct. An old timer I worked with used to say "you can lift a Caddy with a 1/4-20 bolt" and he was correct - a grade 8 1/4-20 has a tensile strength of 4700 lbs, give or take. But a 3/8 grade 8 has a tensile strength of almost 12,000 lbs, which is definitely strong enough. Rule of thumb for something like that is to design it with at least a 100% over the expected maximum load.

My point was that in a collision, the bolt will probably hold, but the underlying structure may not. I've seen incidents where a bolt held just fine but it tore thru the sheet metal it was attached to. Do the seat belt installation wrong and the EMTs will find your seatbelt intact, along with your body and whatever you had fastened the seatbelt to.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

"
Originally Posted by Tim B.

"Also there is an option to the flange mounted belts sold by the vendors. I bought DOT approved aircraft style belts that affix to a permanent eye bolt mount via a clip on the belts. They give a bit more flexibility for mounting since there is no large plate on the belt ends restricting how they must be orientated and the belts can be removed and reinstalled by unclipping leaving the mounts if you feel the need. Tim"

If you are anchoring anything to an eye-bolt, use a one-piece forged eye-bolt. The eye-bolt from the hardware store that is just a round rod bent into a loop is not strong enough. It will unwind under a strong pull unless you weld the loop ends together.

[Tom Endy]

In post #7 above I described how I installed seat belts in my Victoria. Sometime later I wrote an article about it that appeared in the Victoria Association newsletter. This article is available, and with color photos, on the web site of the Santa Anita A's of Arcadia, California. Go to santaanitaas.org. On the home page put your cursor on "Technical Reference" and my name will appear below, click on it. A new menu will come up, scroll down to misc and to seat belt installation. The file is a pdf and you are welcome to download and save or print out.

Since a number of people have expressed liability concerns, please keep in mind that this article is merely explaining how I installed seat belts, and is not recommending that you do it this way.

Tom Endy

[bgarrett]

For those not wanting seatbelts, consider this. At about 35 mph. I hit a concrete column holding a mailbox. The car hit the concrete on the left front frame horn and trapezoided the frame. The 31 coupe stopped on top of the knocked over concrete with no wheels on the ground. Both hands at 11 o'clock and one o'clock on the steering wheel burst the windshield and bleed copiously but not serious injuries. The biggest problem was that the entire seat and cushion slid forward and crushed me against the steering wheel, destroying the wheel and breaking ribs.
Yes I will add seat belts and I think I will bolt that seat down.
We had a nice couple riding in a 31 coupe that was hit on the right rear wheel by a Cadillac. It stressed the body, the passenger door popped open, she fell out, hitting her head on the concrete curb. Dead.

[Greg Jones]

Well I dont want to turn this into a "who has the most sensational wreck" kind of tack on to the original post. But 7 years ago almost to the day a GMC Suburban suddenly pulled out in front of me as I was doing nearly 50 mph. No seat belts and I went through the windshield. Leg wrapped around the gear shift lever and bent it on my way out. By the grace of God I survived that accident but was in bad shape-broken femur, all ribs on right side broken, cuts and gashes. (The original windshield had at some point been replaced with plate glass-bad time to figure that out.) Trust me you can grip the steering wheel as hard as you want but you ain't hanging on at 50 mph. Again, not to sensationalize but as you can imagine my two Model As both have seat belts with solid anchor points. If these pictures make someone think about seat belts then I guess they are worth posting here.

[armchair67]

I installed belts front and back in my Tudor. I'm having the work checked, and if needed, modified by a shop that builds Porsches and other cars for racing. No way I'd drive without belts. Installed properly, they very neat are always the better choose compared to not having them. There are typically three crashes that occur in an auto accident. Car hitting another object. Unbelted occupants hitting inside parts of car. Organs hitting the inside of the skeleton.

[Greg Jones]

Plus, I have the honor of having Steve Becker post this picture at the counter of Bert's Model A in Denver. Hard won honor!

[armchair67]

That was a helluva hit Greg-glad you are here to tell us about it and also glad you learned from it and installed belts. We can be as careful as we want-hard to anticipate what another person is going to do. There are a lot of Donald Turnupseeds and far worse out there

[denis4x4]

The first set of seat belts I ever installed was in 1956 in a '39 Plymouth so I could run at the old Paradise Mesa drag strip east of San Diego. This is not rocket science. As I posted earlier, I'm using 2" channel bolted to the frame with grade 8 fine thread 3/8" bolts.
In the early sixties, I designed and built the first bolt in roll bars for sports cars that were SCCA approved for competition. We looked at countless wrecks as part of the design process. In designing the base plates and backing plates, the secret was to spread the load over the biggest area possible.
Based on my experience, the installation of seat belts in a Model A is best with a dedicated cross member.
To those A owners that are fearful of attorneys or fine point judges, I would suggest that you use seat belt installations with eye bolts so that the belts can be quickly removed.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Remember, use the forged eyebolts and not the rolled ones. The one on the left is the rolled one and will unwind under enough pressure. The right one is forged and is much stronger.