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Old 02-10-2021, 10:36 PM   #1
Will D
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Default Engine removal '38 deluxe

Found brass and silver looking metal flecks, bits and pieces in my engine oil. Cut open the oil filter and found more

Pulling it out for a good look inside but I've never pulled a flatty before; only automatic front wheel drive engines. I've done a couple searches here and ev8 website and come up with some info but still some uncertainty. I'm going to leave the trans in the car and pull just the engine. The trans is original to the car but the engine is a '45 c59a.

Couple questions:

1. Is the trans only affixed to the engine by the bolts thru the belhousing?

2. Do I need to remove the starter before pulling?

3. Is it best to remove the manifolds from the block first or leave on and just disconnect exhaust pipe?(stock exhaust) i realize this question may be a matter of opinion but all are welcome.

4. Do I need to mess with clutch linkage at all?

Remove radiator, horns, disconnect any wiring/fuel/sending units, support front end of trans, undo bellhousing bolts, loosen trans mounts, undo front engine mounts, anti chatter bars, detach exhaust.... should slip right out?

5. In theory if I pay attention to cam slot position for distributor it should slip back in onto the input shaft upon reinstalling?
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Old 02-10-2021, 11:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

never done a 38, but i'll take a poke at it. 1, yes trans bolts just around the bell and she's loose 2, the starter will come with it, but needs to come off anyway , so take it off, its lighter, and one less thing in the way banging into stuff. one oil pan bolt on the pad near the starter too when you get to that point. 3 if you're exhaust is in good shape like it will come apart, then take it off. again, less stuff bulging out to get caught and make you angry! 4 clutch linkage can just stay put, but will need adjustment after rebuild, so i would pull the pin so the linkage is free to move. 5, distributor slot is off center so it can only go back on in the correct location if you pay attention and feel it set down flush before cranking the bolts tight. its easy, but some folks have forced it on and broke stuff. sorry for the dilemma, get her back on the road! opps!!! steady rods too have to come off

Last edited by cas3; 02-10-2021 at 11:30 PM. Reason: to add more
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

.

...........and get that radiator out of there! It'll give you way more room, plus there's no chance of banging it with the engine and damaging it. THAT would piss ya off BIGLY! You'll need to remove the two radiator to firewall rods anyway. I'd put just a little tension (floor jack) under the forward end of trans just to keep the tension off of the input shaft as you slide the engine forward and away from the trans. Then, if it makes ya feel good, you can lay a metal bar/Uni-strut across the X-frame rails just in front of trans. Drill a couple of holes in the bar and run chunk of chain UNDER input shaft to support it, keeping a big load off of the u-joint and it's center bolt. Sorry to hear about the bad gri-gri in the oil!! DD
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Old 02-11-2021, 10:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

excuse my cabin fever; the hard part drain coolant without gettin soaked, take hood off
now those nasty exhaust pipes, sometimes its easier to unbolt manifolds & just let it hang.
wires and all that simple stuff marked and disconnected, remove front motor mount bolts,
raise engine up then a jack under the transmission then all bolts from bell housing. starter can stay clutch stuff can stay now wiggle engine or pry bar- ing at the bell house. and just slide her out. time spent radiator out drain coolant hood off wires said and done 20min. If you can do a front wheel drive this is a walk in the park.
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Old 02-11-2021, 01:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

To make things easier, the hood should come off. You will need a hoist. The collapsible type from Pep Boys or Harbor Freight work fine, and are not that expensive, They have long frame legs that roll under the front axel. It is a tight fit under the axel; I have smaller tires in front, so I had to pump the tires up to 50 lb to get clearance.

Then you need to hook to to the engine. If you remove the intake manifold, there are lift plates that bolt onto intake manifold bolt holes. It is a big help to have a leveler on the hoist that allows you to crank the attach point back and forth to adjust the angle at which the engine hangs. The leveler has front and back chains which you can bolt directly to front and rear intake manifold bolt holes. Extremely handy, especially when you go to put the engine back in and have to get the engine on the same plane as the transmission front shaft. Also, not expensive.
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:01 PM   #6
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Thanks for all the tips guys. I've got the intake off already so will make a plate to lift it.

Radiator - yes Coopman, I'm a pro at that one now after pulling it for re-core then again because the overfill tube was damaged during re-core. Made a lovely mess of the engine bay as it was a small crack where it connects to the fill neck.

To clarify my #5. When the motor goes back in, if the camshaft is in the same position as removal gauging by the distributor slot; it should be all lined up for the transmission input shaft to slip back in?


Quote:
Originally Posted by big job View Post
If you can do a front wheel drive this is a walk in the park.
Want a good story? Blew a rod out of the block on my daily driver (nissan sentra-no I'm not proud of it ). Replaced the engine, week later had to replace the trans. Couple months later burnt #1 exhaust valve in #4 cylinder. Ripped it all apart and fixed. 6months later burnt #2 exhaust valve in #4 cylinder. Just got it all back together last weekend. Im still smilin' tho the joys of life!
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will D View Post
Thanks for all the tips guys. I've got the intake off already so will make a plate to lift it.

Radiator - yes Coopman, I'm a pro at that one now after pulling it for re-core then again because the overfill tube was damaged during re-core. Made a lovely mess of the engine bay as it was a small crack where it connects to the fill neck.

To clarify my #5. When the motor goes back in, if the camshaft is in the same position as removal gauging by the distributor slot; it should be all lined up for the transmission input shaft to slip back in?
Hey Will.....The transmission INPUT shaft does NOT need to be indexed to any particular engine position. If you think about it, that relationship changes every time you release the clutch. You've got it covered! Bundle-up, 'cuz it's gonna get nippy! DD
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Hey Will.....The transmission INPUT shaft does NOT need to be indexed to any particular engine position. If you think about it, that relationship changes every time you release the clutch. You've got it covered! Bundle-up, 'cuz it's gonna get nippy! DD
Thanks DD, I'm still a work in progress. Got a heated garage at least. We are at -4 F this week!
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Its a lot easier to go out or in on 37,38 and 39 std by removing the water pumps to pull and putting them back on when the engine is back in.
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:08 PM   #10
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Its a lot easier to go out or in on 37,38 and 39 std by removing the water pumps to pull and putting them back on when the engine is back in.
Good point. As the engine comes forward it looks like they might hit or get real tight as the nose tapers on the engine bay.
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Old 02-11-2021, 06:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

>>>might hit or get real tight as the nose tapers>>>


Take the nose off. You'll be glad you did. Jack E/NJ
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Old 02-11-2021, 06:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

.

You take that nose off and you won't be speaking very nicely about the guy that suggested that, especially when you realize how tremendously difficult it is to re-align (PROPERLY and PRECISELY) all of that sheet metal....hood, fenders, inners and grill, not to forget the radiator and rods on a '38. I WOULDN'T do it!! DD
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Old 02-11-2021, 07:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I took a motor out of a '38 for a rebuild some years ago. I found it much easier to remove the grill and take it out through the front. Left transmission in the car. I did remove the floorboards to make access to the trans bolts, etc.
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Old 02-11-2021, 07:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I removed/installed the engine in my '38 Deluxe with the transmission attached. I just removed the grill (and radiator) and had no problem with getting it aligned.
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Old 02-11-2021, 08:11 PM   #15
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I removed/installed the engine in my '38 Deluxe with the transmission attached. I just removed the grill (and radiator) and had no problem with getting it aligned.
Grill & hood.....YEAH! The whole "nose" (which I read to mean fenders & everything forward of firewall) ....heck NO! DD
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Old 02-12-2021, 11:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I have pulled the engine on a 38 and removed the hood, although you could support it straight up and did not remove the grill - removed the radiator. I made a lift hook that is a piece of angle iron that drops into the valve galley and long enough to extend just past the intake ports and welded 1” pieces of rod at each end of the angle iron to catch between a pair of intake ports to prevent it from sliding out and welded a U bolt to the upper edge of the angle iron. Easy to insert with the manifold removed and connect to the lift.
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Old 02-13-2021, 11:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Got on it this afternoon, started disconnecting things and getting ready to lift er out. I've got to wait til Tuesday to get a hoist so the plan was to just prep for that. Ended up having too much fun, so the exhaust manifolds came off, starter, then the heads.

Ended up discovering why my compression was low in #2 cylinder. But also found quite the detail in #3 cylinder wall. Any ideas as to what would have caused that??

From what I can tell its all stock and original aside from a valve job in its past. No liners but a minor valve relief job. Not sure if that may be factory, it looks pretty consistent/machined and think I read somewhere, something about some canadian blocks being factory relieved. Can't remember for certain. Thinking I will discover the bearings are the cause of the metal shavings in the bottom end. Will see once I get it out.











Any ideas what would or could have caused this in #3 Cylinder?
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Old 02-14-2021, 02:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

One thing I do on our 33 is to loosen the two rear trans engine mounting bolts so when you pivot up the front of the trans to get the. engine out you dont stress the mount.
and when you put the engine back in, make up a couple of 3 inch long 3/8 unc bolts with the heads cut off , and screw them into the eng to line up the trans .
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Old 02-14-2021, 05:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I'm just wondering, how did it run?
What I'm getting at, if you hadn't found the metal particles, and were oblivious to the imperfections in the bores would you have been happy to run it like it is?

The bore No.2, while not ideal, is not untypical of some flattys reawoken after long years of sitting.

The marks on No3 cylinder might be associated with a loose or missing pin circlip. (if fore and aft in the bore).

Are you planning a full rebuild, or a repair what's broke rebuild?

A rebore to the first cleanup size would be preferential.

I wonder what the bottom end will reveal. Watching with interest.

Oh it's not the same, but I did pull the motor on a 40 with the hood still in place. I tied it back higher than normal though.

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Old 02-14-2021, 10:42 AM   #20
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I'm just wondering, how did it run?
What I'm getting at, if you hadn't found the metal particles, and were oblivious to the imperfections in the bores would you have been happy to run it like it is?

The bore No.2, while not ideal, is not untypical of some flattys reawoken after long years of sitting.

The marks on No3 cylinder might be associated with a loose or missing pin circlip. (if fore and aft in the bore).

Are you planning a full rebuild, or a repair what's broke rebuild?

A rebore to the first cleanup size would be preferential.

I wonder what the bottom end will reveal. Watching with interest.

Oh it's not the same, but I did pull the motor on a 40 with the hood still in place. I tied it back higher than normal though.

Mart.

It ran good for the most part, never left me stranded. Aside from the ticking noise I had mentioned in a previous thread, there was a strange noise/vibration every now and again. When the noise would come about, it was on the hwy. Typically only stayed for 1km then went away and didn't seem to change when I let off the throttle. Sounded more like it was coming from the rear but it remained after the rear end rebuild. Yes, I would have just continued to run it if I hadn't found the metal particals.

You got it, I think your right on #3. Just went and checked and this is the opposite side of the bore. This pic being fore and the other pic aft in the bore.



Didn't plan for either, so at this point I'm rolling with a repair manual, your YouTube vids and FB. The machine shop I've dealt with in town for my DD builds flatheads, so I'm going to get pricing and see what I can come up with. I'll probably get him to do any machining I lack tools for and re assemble everything myself. Sure wish I had your boring machine! Don't plan on doing anything too crazy, just getting it back on the road.

I've got my hood strung up just like that, the less you gotta remove, the better.

Lawrie - yes I did loosen the rear trans engine mounts. Great tip with the long dowels for lining up, I will be doing this.
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Old 02-17-2021, 01:05 AM   #21
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Made it in time after work to pick up the engine hoist. Managed to get it pulled, with the hood on.



I was going to remove the water pumps prior but I neglected to notice the bolt thru the bottom inlet. Glad I didn't pry and bang on it. Had to twist slightly to get double pulley past the hood latch brace. Had a comfortable amount of clearance all the way around.

Have a bunch of 1/4" flat steel plates so I ended up making a lifting plate that covers the entire valve gallery. A little overboard compared to the summit lifting plate but better safe than sorry.



I ended up running out of welding wire before I was finished the exhaust mount adapter for my engine stand so I ended up just pulling #3 & #7 pistons and rod bearing for now. #3 is the cylinder which had the bad wear in the cylinder wall due to a suspected loose piston pin retaining circlip. Turns out just the little doodad or doomahickie, whatever its called was snapped off of the retaining circlip. Amazing what kind of damage a little piece of spring steel can do.



If you look closely, you can see the circlip is still in place, it is only the little doodad thats broken off/missing. I found the little piece inside the center of the piston pin, hence the wear on both sides of the piston ring on the cylinder wall.



What the circlip used to look like.



A couple pics of the rod bearing after meeting metal bits.







Broken ring discovered on #7 cylinder.



Interesting repair previously done to the oil pick up.



Will get more welding wire tomorrow so I can get this thing on a stand and continue to disassemble.
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Old 02-17-2021, 07:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Those are great pictures! Very informative.
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Old 02-17-2021, 07:35 AM   #23
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Lots of good info there, Will.
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Old 02-17-2021, 08:01 AM   #24
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Love the picture documentation, keep it coming. Reminds me of my first flathead a ‘50 sedan, when I drained the oil I found pieces of rings in the drain pan, surprisingly the cylinder walls were ok.
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Old 02-17-2021, 12:23 PM   #25
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not sure i would trust copper fittings and solder on the pick up tube, call Vanpelts Sales and get a new one!
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Old 02-17-2021, 03:03 PM   #26
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not sure i would trust copper fittings and solder on the pick up tube, call Vanpelts Sales and get a new one!
Yes, I will replace this. I love the fix it idea but if any leak occurred, there would be major oil pick up problems.
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Old 02-17-2021, 03:07 PM   #27
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i am more afraid of it breaking off, but yeah, fix er' up
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:18 AM   #28
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I managed to get back at it, finished the stand bracket and got to disassembly. I am thinking at this point, the metal bits in the oil were from the circlip damage to the #3 cylinder wall and the locking tabs on the rod nuts. The rods in this thing are 29A6205(more on these later), instead of holes for a cotter pin and castle nut, they have locking tab washers. X5 of the locking tabs were missing, snapped off. When I was removing the remaining locking tabs, a few more broke right off while the others just bent over.





Broken locking tab - MIA



The connecting rod bearings need to be replaced so I will get the rod big holes cleaned up and see if floating bearings are available in the closest oversize. If I can't find the bearings, I can use 8ba rods and insert bearings. The C59A crank has x2 oil holes on each rod journal unlike the 59A which only had x1. The rod journal sizes are the same from 45-53.





Interesting to note the 59A block typically has "59" cast in the top center of the bellhousing. This C59A block does not have "59" cast in the bellhousing but instead has "C59A" cast on the front left head on the block.





Here is a pic of the only cast numbers on the bellhousing.



Check out the wear on this oil relief valve plunger.



Con rod journals don't look too bad.





The block and all that is/was on it was made in Canada from what I can tell. Except the oil pump. Says USA right on it. Whether this was a replacement or original hardware, I don't know.





What I would like to know is how to distinguish a 50lb pump from an 80lb pump. Model number or can you tell by counting the gear teeth? When the motor was running previous, it had 2 gauges. The stock dash gauge read up to #50. The needle would always shoot up past 50 and stay there when running, hot or cold. A mechanical aftermarket gauge mounted under the dash read up to #60. It would sit at #50 cold and #35-#40 warm idle.


Got all the pistons removed, tackled one valve after making a valve spring tool. Will get the rest out tomorrow hopefully.



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Last edited by Will D; 02-23-2021 at 11:00 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:28 AM   #29
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Oh ya, those piston rods...in searching for info, I could only find information on the most common for 59A which are 29A6200 rods. This C59A has 29A6205 rods which have differences from all others. Check out page 24 & 25 for an interesting roducation. I'll post the link to which I found this great info as well.

26A6205 con rods



99A caps



If you can't read these, click the link to zoom in.





Page 24/25

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ItB...page&q&f=false
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:01 AM   #30
Mart
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Hi Will.
Good job on numbering the cylinders and components.

The "wear" flat on the pump plunger is intentional. They should all have that. It allows a constant bleed of oil to lube up the cam gear area.

The engine looks pretty good inside, if you are confident you have found the source of the metal, is it just a case of reassembly?

Will you use some self locking nuts?

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Old 02-21-2021, 09:51 AM   #31
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Looks like a Melling M-19 oil pump which I believe is 50#.
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:01 PM   #32
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Hi Will.
Good job on numbering the cylinders and components.

The "wear" flat on the pump plunger is intentional. They should all have that. It allows a constant bleed of oil to lube up the cam gear area.

The engine looks pretty good inside, if you are confident you have found the source of the metal, is it just a case of reassembly?

Will you use some self locking nuts?

Mart.
Thanks Mart, and all who have commented.

Good to know that flat spot on the plunger is supposed to be there.

It does look pretty good inside but I am concerned about #3 cylinder wall. I feel like its going to cause problems sooner than later, possibly developing into a crack.



I am going to deal with that for sure but as well am going thru everything and checking fits and tolerances as per my repair manual.



An excerpt from the forward:
-----------
"This is a Repair Manual rather than a Reconditioner's Manual, and some acceptable repair practices would not be acceptable reconditioning practices. In this book the word "repair" is used to indicate "restore to good working condition" and not to a "like new" condition.
-----------

Self locking nuts, are those the aircraft ones you refer to in your videos?
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

My gut feeling, Will, is that the cylinder wall will be fine, as it has only been abraded, not impacted. If the score is deep, it is possible to cheat the boring bar over to equalise up the cuts and achieve bore cleanup at a smaller oversize than if cutting on centre. This is advanced stuff, I've not done it, but it was described to me by one of the experienced builders on here.
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I had found what I believe to be the source of the metalic bits but hadn't traced the source of the brass particles. I think I found it. I couldn't remove the front cover until I removed the crank pulley because the bolts where a hair too long. Once off, I discovered the front engine cover/ timing gear cover has been brazed at some point. You can see a groove worn in the brass, deeper on the bottom edge. The timing gear is aluminum. It got me thinking, awhile back when I rebuilt the distributor, the back of the point plate had a deep groove worn in it to the point of removing the rivet heads and then some.

Are these 2 issues linked? What could be the source? Bent cam? Worn cam bearings? Is anything supposed to retain the cam aside from the front cover?

Front engine cover:


Points plate, rear view:
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Will, Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to meticulously photograph and
explain exactly what you are doing in such detail. It's a great learning experience for all.
Be sure to keep us updated. Wishing you continued success with your project. I imagine you will be getting a new timing cover. On your engine, doesn't the thrust of the cam go "forward"?
Jim
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Cam thrust should be towards the block on a 59a engine and toward the timing cover on an 8ba. Could be an 8ba set of cam gears in there.
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Old 02-23-2021, 12:32 PM   #37
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Cam thrust should be towards the block on a 59a engine and toward the timing cover on an 8ba. Could be an 8ba set of cam gears in there.
I'm not beside it right now and don't have a pic of the back of the gear, but no numbers on the front. Can you tell from the gear??


Don't mind my shoe, or lack there of. Haha
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Old 02-23-2021, 12:44 PM   #38
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I have a 59 block on engine stand now. Facing the crank gear installed on the crank, the teeth slant off the the left side. Looks like yours on the crank in the picture of it on the floor. I bought this engine this way, so I can't verify originality.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:55 PM   #39
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

The gears in the pictures are putting the thrust towards the block.

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Old 02-23-2021, 02:04 PM   #40
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Is there a problem at the oil pump drive end? Imagine an oil pump that is very hard to turn (mega high pressure) or very tight idler gear, that would impart a forward thrust on the cam from that gear at the back end.

Can't really se that being it, but I'm racking my brains to think what could cause the cam to thrust forwards.

The cover was brazed, do you think it was finished to the correct height?

Would a replacement cover that is not damaged possibly be all that is required?

I'm interested to see what unfolds.

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Old 02-23-2021, 03:19 PM   #41
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The cover was brazed, do you think it was finished to the correct height?

Would a replacement cover that is not damaged possibly be all that is required?

Mart.

It is quite possible it was not finished to correct clearance. I can't find a picture of a good NOS cover to compare. The 2 best pics I could find, one from the hamb another from ebay. The hamb one says its used but all cleaned up, the ebay one says its NOS but appears to be a used rope seal in it so not sure. Both covers show an indented ring where the cam gear would sit against.

Did these covers come new with same plain on the entire face or did they come with slight indent?

If the indent is supposed to be there then I would assume my cover was brazed and finished at same plain and the gear wore the indent where it should be??



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Old 02-23-2021, 03:32 PM   #42
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Should be flat, Will, same plane as the centre part.
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Make sure you change the 4 freeze plugs in the oil pan. They did not look too good. Dont ask me how i know. It is amazing how fast the oil pan will fill up with water
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Old 02-23-2021, 05:19 PM   #44
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Should be flat, Will, same plane as the centre part.
Thanks for the pic.

Quote:
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Make sure you change the 4 freeze plugs in the oil pan. They did not look too good. Dont ask me how i know. It is amazing how fast the oil pan will fill up with water
Will do, one was pretty corroded, the other 3 looked ok but yes all 4 will be replaced. If it wasn't for all the hi temp rtv it probably would have leaked into the pan.
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Old 02-25-2021, 08:04 AM   #45
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Great info for me! I have a ‘39 2dr Standard with a ‘53 Mercury, at least it looks the part and that’s what I was told but I haven’t measured the stroke. I have a very leaky pan and am contemplating pulling the engine to replace the gaskets and dip stick thing a ma bob. And while I’m at it figure out why the oil pressure drops off under hard acceleration. The pan was replaced I was told because it was hitting the frame cross member. Current pan has a rear sump. Could it be I need a different pick for the rear sump?

Thanks,

Jim
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:34 PM   #46
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Valve assemblies and crankshaft oil plugs

I managed to get the valve assemblies cleaned up and everything checked with a micrometer. According to the reconditioning specs in my manual, the valves are all within spec. 3 split guides will need to be replaced as well as 1 spring.








It is interesting to note, all the split guide sets appear to be original FOMCO aside from x2 sets which I believe are reproductions. Of the 3 split guide sets that need to be replaced, 1 set is the repro set which has the worst wear out of all the guides.

Repro on left, FOMOCO on right





I decided to get creative to see if the springs were within spec. My rig looks alittle different than the one in the manual but garnered the results needed. Utilizing a long bolt and two nuts to lock against each other, then a large washer and another nut. The distance from the washer to end of bolt head is 2.125". The double nut and bolt head were ground down to fit within the spring.



With the gauge/bolt mounted in the drill press, the drill stop was set just as the gauge/bolt came into contact with the scale. This allowed the gauge/bolt to sit high enough for a spring to be slid in under it. Then compressed the spring, stopping with the drill stop as 2.125" was achieved. Resulting with the gauge/bolt just above the scale as to not add additional pressure/ weight to the scale.





The oil plugs in the block came out relatively easy. Using a propane torch, heated around the plug to 110F and the brass plug came right out with a hand driver. The steel plug required the heat and a slight rapp from an electric impact driver.

The crankshaft oil plugs proved to be a bit more of a challenge. First attempt was with just a slotted screw driver and a Cresent wrench on the shaft for leverage. Then some penetrant fluid, then some heat, then the impact, then I stopped before I mangled the slot to bad.....I ended up welding a nut to the plug. First 2 came out like butter, last 2 took a few attempts. The last one, I ended up having to weld a washer to the plug, then a nut to the washer in order to get the weld to stick.





Getting there, bit by bit. Now to track down some parts.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:59 PM   #47
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Looks like lots of progress!
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:20 PM   #48
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

When testing the oil relief valve springs, both in the block and in the pump, it was discovered that the spring in the pump was quite higher tension than spec. Can this happen to the spring steel under certain conditions or did someone install a stronger spring at some point for some reason?

Spec is between 78 oz / 4.875 lbs and 87 oz / 5.42 lbs. The spring was measured at 128 oz / 8 lbs.

The block oil relief spring was a lot closer to spec at 4.5 lbs

Block relief valve spring

Oil pump relief valve spring
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:54 PM   #49
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...

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Old 02-28-2021, 11:52 PM   #50
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nice detective work there ! i'm sure you will have a nice flathead as a result
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Old 03-01-2021, 12:21 AM   #51
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

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Valve assemblies and crankshaft oil plugs
I decided to get creative to see if the springs were within spec.

Getting there, bit by bit. Now to track down some parts.

Hey Will .....Ya know, for a young, 32-year-old, snotty-nosed kid, you're pretty damned intuitive and resourceful. It's so cool watching an enthusiastic young guy figuring-out methods on your own...simplistic ways to tame that ancient old beast. You're doing some slick stuff here, Will! Proud to see you here on the 'Barn, likely showing some old farts some new tricks! DD
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:46 AM   #52
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Very good work, there Will. Nice methodical and scientific approach.

Mart.
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Old 03-01-2021, 10:53 AM   #53
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Hey Will .....Ya know, for a young, 32-year-old, snotty-nosed kid, you're pretty damned intuitive and resourceful.
Haha, you crack me up DD!

Can someone educate me on oil pumps. What is the difference between a #50 and #80 pump? Aside from part of model number. Is it the amount of gear teeth or the spring tension?
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:54 PM   #54
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Is there a problem at the oil pump drive end? Imagine an oil pump that is very hard to turn (mega high pressure) or very tight idler gear, that would impart a forward thrust on the cam from that gear at the back end.

Can't really se that being it, but I'm racking my brains to think what could cause the cam to thrust forwards.


Mart.
The oil pump gears/bushings/shaft are in good condition and all spins freely. The pressure relief spring however has been replaced with a high tension spring(8lbs) when it should be between 4.8 - 5.4 lbs. for a 50lb pump. Could this be the added pressure you where thinking of which could cause forward thrust on the camshaft?

I had good oil pressure but the bearings are all well worn. Thinking the spring was replaced to increase pressure. Does that make sense?
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:46 PM   #55
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I honestly don't know. Bear in mind the spring is a blow off valve if the pressure gets too high. In reality the pressure is determined by the clearances in the bearings It would be unusual for the relief valve to be operational except for a short time after startup.
So I honestly don't know whether the forward thrust generated from the driving of the oil pump is able to overcome the rearward thrust from the timing gears having to drive the valves plus the oil pump load.
I'm thinking too much.
My brain hurts.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:46 PM   #56
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I honestly don't know. Bear in mind the spring is a blow off valve if the pressure gets too high. In reality the pressure is determined by the clearances in the bearings It would be unusual for the relief valve to be operational except for a short time after startup.
So I honestly don't know whether the forward thrust generated from the driving of the oil pump is able to overcome the rearward thrust from the timing gears having to drive the valves plus the oil pump load.
I'm thinking too much.
My brain hurts.
Mart.

Thanks Mart, no doubt your head hurts, I forget about the time difference sometimes. Your burning the candle at both ends

From what I'm finding online and given the way ford designed the cover, it is meant to be a thrust surface with the 2 oil grooves to lubricate it. This wear may not have bin as much with a fibre timing gear but the aluminum replacements can grind a little more. Most used covers I've found have a groove worn in it from the timing gear.

With the aftermarket aluminum timing gear, it would be neat if a guy could modify the cover with a torrington bearing. You can find them with high enough rpm ranges but not sure the amount of noise that would generate.

Some might say it worked fine for ford for years, why change it but we changed the material for the gear so maybe the cover should change along with it?
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:27 PM   #57
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

The french engine uses a hardened round tip on a screw right in the center of the cover in front of the cam. Thus no contact from timing gear to cover and adjustable as well as the hardened balltip rests on the cam center.

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Old 06-17-2021, 12:29 AM   #58
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Slowly but surely....

The block has been sitting at the machine shop for the past 3 and a half months waiting in line. Stopped in and the fella said to keep on him and he'd get on it so, after stopping in every day for the last week, it's happening! It's been hot tanked, magnafluxed and pressure tested and all is good. Now it's up for a sleeve in the damaged cylinder, clean up bore on the other cylinders and valve seat clean up/cut.

I managed to source locally, a good condition used timing cover and a matching set of used 8ba rods at more than a fair price. Ended up meeting a guy who only lives a hop, skip and a jump from me with a nice little collection of flathead goodies and a wealth of knowledge. I couldn't be happier.

Hopefully I'll be on to re assembly shortly.
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