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Old 11-19-2021, 01:02 PM   #21
California Travieso
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Again, to each his own, if you want a totally stock Model A, that’s fine, and if you want a more reliable engine that great too. It’s your car, do what you want with it. I’m just wondering how many of those that want a totally stock Model A have installed high compression heads, overdrive and other modifications. If you want the total experience then try to get 46 octane gas.

David Serrano
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:02 PM   #22
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

PC/SR, Mark, and Wayne,
Thank you for your comments that are copied below.


No doubt the Burtz engine is better designed and engineered than Henry's original A. To my mind using it is not much different than using a Pinto engine as was used in the Shay, or any other after market engine. To each his own. I am not a purist but I do like the authenticity factor of using the original engine, and mods of a type that were available back in the day if that is fun for you. Hey, what's the fun (and challenge) of owning a Model A if you do not have a knock, rattle, miss, oil, water or gas leak, timing problem, occasional breakdown, etc. I do hope the organizations do not start recognizing the Burtz as a Model A equivalent engine and accepting it in judging and competition.
PC/SR


I agree with PC/SR's post.
If I wanted to put a modern Engine in my Model A ,I would see no point in owning it.
To me part of the experience of driving my Model A is to experience the Model A as it sounded and drove as it did in my A's case in 1930, warts and all.
I would definitely pay more to rebuild a original block if my A's engine needed a rebuild.
I feel that replacing the original block/ engine with a modern repro is the same as putting a diesel engine in an Ocean liner that originally was powered with a steam turbine. It is not the same. It has lost something that makes it unique.
I know that the Burtz Engine is smoother more reliable , more powerful than an original engine/block , but it is destroying the soul of the vehicle.
All things being equal If I were given the choice of buying a Model A that had an original rebuilt Engine or a Model A with a Burtz block I would go for the "A " with the original block engine every time.
I would pay extra for one with the original block. More desirable in my opinion.
This is my personal preference. Time will tell which way it pans out.
Would you buy a1930 Packard with an origional Engine/block or one with a repro block ? Which one is more desirable ?
Mark


I totally agree with you. I want a stock A like my dad drove.
Wayne




The “New Engine” consists of 3 parts (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rod) that replace three frail original parts that often fail due to antique engineering, miss-machining in prior rebuilds, cracks, fatigue, etc.

All interfaces on the “New Engine” allow the use of stock bolt-on parts and through laser scanning, the exterior of the new cylinder block is accurate within a few wavelengths of light to an original cylinder block.

If built stock, the appearance and performance of the "New Engine" is identical to a Model A engine as it rolled off the assembly line.

You can still use the “New Engine” and have a stock Model A like your Dad drove and experience all of the rattles, miss-firing, oil leaks, water leaks, gas leaks, timing problems, and occasional breakdowns because all attaching parts that cause these problems can be worn out original parts.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 11-19-2021 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Misspelled word
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
PC/SR, Mark, and Wayne,
Thank you for your comments that are copied below.


No doubt the Burtz engine is better designed and engineered than Henry's original A. To my mind using it is not much different than using a Pinto engine as was used in the Shay, or any other after market engine. To each his own. I am not a purist but I do like the authenticity factor of using the original engine, and mods of a type that were available back in the day if that is fun for you. Hey, what's the fun (and challenge) of owning a Model A if you do not have a knock, rattle, miss, oil, water or gas leak, timing problem, occasional breakdown, etc. I do hope the organizations do not start recognizing the Burtz as a Model A equivalent engine and accepting it in judging and competition.
PC/SR


I agree with PC/SR's post.
If I wanted to put a modern Engine in my Model A ,I would see no point in owning it.
To me part of the experience of driving my Model A is to experience the Model A as it sounded and drove as it did in my A's case in 1930, warts and all.
I would definitely pay more to rebuild a original block if my A's engine needed a rebuild.
I feel that replacing the original block/ engine with a modern repro is the same as putting a diesel engine in an Ocean liner that originally was powered with a steam turbine. It is not the same. It has lost something that makes it unique.
I know that the Burtz Engine is smoother more reliable , more powerful than an original engine/block , but it is destroying the soul of the vehicle.
All things being equal If I were given the choice of buying a Model A that had an original rebuilt Engine or a Model A with a Burtz block I would go for the "A " with the original block engine every time.
I would pay extra for one with the original block. More desirable in my opinion.
This is my personal preference. Time will tell which way it pans out.
Would you buy a1930 Packard with an origional Engine/block or one with a repro block ? Which one is more desirable ?
Mark


I totally agree with you. I want a stock A like my dad drove.
Wayne




The “New Engine” consists of 3 parts (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rod) that replace three frail original parts that often fail due to antique engineering, miss-machining in prior rebuilds, cracks, fatigue, etc.

All interfaces on the “New Engine” allow the use of stock bolt-on parts and through laser scanning, the exterior of the new cylinder block is accurate within a few wavelengths of light to an original cylinder block.

If built stock, the appearance and performance of the "New Engine" is identical to a Model A engine as is rolled off the assembly line.

You can still use the “New Engine” and have a stock Model A like your Dad drove and experience all of the rattles, miss-firing, oil leaks, water leaks, gas leaks, timing problems, and occasional breakdowns because all attaching parts that cause these problems can be worn out original parts.
Too funny, Mr. Burtz. Thanks for clearing that up!!
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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Originally Posted by California Travieso View Post
Again, to each his own, if you want a totally stock Model A, that’s fine, and if you want a more reliable engine that great too. It’s your car, do what you want with it. I’m just wondering how many of those that want a totally stock Model A have installed high compression heads, overdrive and other modifications. If you want the total experience then try to get 46 octane gas.

David Serrano
I wonder the same. Even a Snyder 5.5 head that resembles a stock head can easily be spotted.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:16 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
I have a quote of $4500 for a rebuilt Model "B" short block where I provide the engine. !
Let’s compare short block to short block. The cam you put in your B can be the same as a Burtz block. The gears are the same. The pistons are the same as well the rings. The inserts in the Burtz block most likely always be available, as well the rear main seal. The cost for either is not much different, except the B block is old, stressed, prone to cracks, most likely has rust build up in the coolant passages, and the B is not the same quality cast iron as used in todays engines. How long did the B engine last since it was last rebuilt? As Terry Burtz mentioned the Burtz block can be made to look exactly, sound exactly, and run exactly as a Model A engine.

Now $4500 for a rebuilt Model B short block plus an engine you provide. How much do you expect to pay for a B engine if you can find one that is rebuildable?
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Old 11-19-2021, 03:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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The main issue that l have with the new block is that l WILL KNOW that the engine is a new reproduction .

I don't care if the new block is indistinguishable from an old block in appearance and others think it is a original block the fact does not change ,
It is NOT a original Ford manufactured block.

This is very important for me.

Mark.
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Old 11-19-2021, 03:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKA View Post
The main issue that l have with the new block is that l WILL KNOW that the engine is a new reproduction .

I don't care if the new block is indistinguishable from an old block in appearance and others think it is a original block the fact does not change ,
It is NOT a original Ford manufactured block.

This is very important for me.

Mark.
That is all well and good for YOU and I fully understand where you are coming from. But the O/P, who originally ask the question, already has a "B" block which wouldn't have been original to his Vicky in the first place, so why not use a Burtz Block if the cost is within reason?
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Old 11-19-2021, 03:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKA View Post
The main issue that l have with the new block is that l WILL KNOW that the engine is a new reproduction .

I don't care if the new block is indistinguishable from an old block in appearance and others think it is a original block the fact does not change ,
It is NOT a original Ford manufactured block.

This is very important for me.

Mark.
Then don't buy it. Seems like a simple solution to me, I was hoping you had something to add in response to the original poster's question.
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

We see the price quoted on this post as "6500 and still need flywheel pressure plate, Etc" ?

Typical customer's engine rebuild from us for complete engine with pressure plate / flywheel; ready to go back in is from $6200-6500 including balancing and cracks repaired.

The tipping point is cost of "New" engine, parts plus an addition to what you still need to source.

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Old 11-19-2021, 04:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

IMO, the cost to build any Burtz block is influenced by where you are. Over here, it is not easy to find the bearing shells (inserts) because none of the cars they came out of were ever sold here new. No Chevs, Buicks, Olds etc have been sold here since 1948 at least and apart from a few Asian assembled small cars, no cars wearing any GM badge will ever be sold here again.
I was only able to get a set of bearings for my Burtz engine because of the help of a very obliging forum member who lives in the US. He sourced them for me and sent them on. Dealing direct with the US suppliers is a real hassle. Some of them won't deal over seas (to us, they are the ones over seas!) and getting a reply is like pulling teeth from others. Not worth it.
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Old 11-19-2021, 05:16 PM   #31
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
IMO, the cost to build any Burtz block is influenced by where you are. Over here, it is not easy to find the bearing shells (inserts) because none of the cars they came out of were ever sold here new. No Chevs, Buicks, Olds etc have been sold here since 1948 at least and apart from a few Asian assembled small cars, no cars wearing any GM badge will ever be sold here again.
I was only able to get a set of bearings for my Burtz engine because of the help of a very obliging forum member who lives in the US. He sourced them for me and sent them on. Dealing direct with the US suppliers is a real hassle. Some of them won't deal over seas (to us, they are the ones over seas!) and getting a reply is like pulling teeth from others. Not worth it.
I’m guessing there are more than a few members on here that would buy the bearings and ship them to you. I shipped several “A” parts to Australia and New Zealand. I will admit that freight charges were ridiculous…..usually more than the price I charged for the parts.
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Old 11-19-2021, 06:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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I’m guessing there are more than a few members on here that would buy the bearings and ship them to you. I shipped several “A” parts to Australia and New Zealand. I will admit that freight charges were ridiculous…..usually more than the price I charged for the parts.
You are exactly correct. We get stung big time on freight - so much so that buying from the US is often not an option. As a rule of thumb, I double the $US price for what it will cost me by the time I get it.
Pity our own manufacturing capability has been destroyed by the actions of ours and many other Governments around the world. I'm not sure whether the US signed on to this but I wouldn't be surprised.
https://www.unido.org/sites/default/...6.3.1975_0.PDF
On behalf of the others you have helped, I thank you. I am OK for now but it's good to know that such help is available.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:23 PM   #33
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
IMO, the cost to build any Burtz block is influenced by where you are. Over here, it is not easy to find the bearing shells (inserts) because none of the cars they came out of were ever sold here new. No Chevs, Buicks, Olds etc have been sold here since 1948 at least and apart from a few Asian assembled small cars, no cars wearing any GM badge will ever be sold here again.
I was only able to get a set of bearings for my Burtz engine because of the help of a very obliging forum member who lives in the US. He sourced them for me and sent them on. Dealing direct with the US suppliers is a real hassle. Some of them won't deal over seas (to us, they are the ones over seas!) and getting a reply is like pulling teeth from others. Not worth it.
NO SMALL BLOCK CHEVIES!!! How did you get so lucky.
Just Kidding. I'm curious tho. What do the Hot Rodders use for engines?? I know a few guys are running Y-Block Fords.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:55 PM   #34
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Synchro909,

Have you tried to buy the bearing inserts from Precision Int’l Pty Ltd W.A. Osborne Park 1300 364 350 in Australia?

They are the distributor for King bearings in Australia, and the basic part number is CR 624, and sets have a basic part number starting with CR 803.

Check out this catalog page: http://www.king-catalog.com/Catalog/Engine/20050956
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Old 11-19-2021, 08:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

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Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Synchro909,

Have you tried to buy the bearing inserts from Precision Int’l Pty Ltd W.A. Osborne Park 1300 364 350 in Australia?

They are the distributor for King bearings in Australia, and the basic part number is CR 624, and sets have a basic part number starting with CR 803.

Check out this catalog page: http://www.king-catalog.com/Catalog/Engine/20050956
Terry, No, I did not try them. They didn't turn up on any search I did, probably because I was looking for an Australian supplier. It's not an issue now as I have the bearings. BTW, As I have progressed through this build, I have become more and more impressed with what yo have done. Thank you.
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:03 PM   #36
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NO SMALL BLOCK CHEVIES!!! How did you get so lucky.
Just Kidding. I'm curious tho. What do the Hot Rodders use for engines?? I know a few guys are running Y-Block Fords.
Y, Not being a hot rodder wanting to insert a different engine, I don't know what they use - could be anything. That said, there are those who say that my Model A is a hot rod even though it has the original motor.
From what I can see, regulations relating to what modifications can be made to a car are very much more stringent here. For example, with our Model As, if the engine is more than 25% more powerful than the original, the car has to be assessed by an automotive engineer and passed as complying with the regs. Such a car is considered a new build and so must comply with modern requirements like windscreen washers, two (at least) speed wipers, seat belts, collapsible steering column and brake tests that a Model A could not hope to pass with standard wheels and there are restrictions on what wheels can be substituted, even if we could get them. I have never seen a 16" wheel here other than ones recently imported from the US, for example. Try fitting a retractable lap/sash seat belt to an open car!
Many of the cars on your roads would be allowed here without upgrades. I have a friend who has been looking for a 1933 or 34 Ford. He says that sellers over there can't understand when they say their car has this or that motor in it (other than the original) and it is an instant deal breaker.
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Bob Bidonde I had put this together prices from Brattons book!
I would think there are a couple other things hat have to be considered: Does the block have to be cleaned up (filing/grinding)? Also another consideration is who will assemble the engine yourself/builder?

Hope it helps even a little more!

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Old 11-19-2021, 10:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quite frankly, a Burtz engine would be a bargain based on what I’ve invested in this one! 60HP at the rear wheels.
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Old 11-20-2021, 02:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Arnold, I just got 5 sets from the king agent here no drama.
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Old 11-20-2021, 08:12 AM   #40
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Bob, I sent an email...
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