Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2021, 12:52 PM   #1
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,516
Default Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I want to hear from those running a Burtz engine. If I were to buy a Burtz engine for $3900, what is the total cost to get it running without any extras?
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 02:45 PM   #2
W1LSU
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Henderson, TN
Posts: 20
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I look forward to hearing from those running the Burtz engine, also. I have a 1931 Ford Model AA pickup truck, and from the know details, this engine would be a perfect fit for my pick-up truck. Anxiously awaiting any feedback from the Burtz engine.
W1LSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-18-2021, 04:04 PM   #3
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,979
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I very much doubt any of those engines will be put together with no extras. The reason people buy them is for the ability they have for more power and stamina. I think VERY few will be assembled with a standard head for example and most will have a down draught carburettor and a cam as well and that is a minimum.
__________________
Life is a long lesson in humility
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 04:58 PM   #4
goodcar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 243
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
I want to hear from those running a Burtz engine. If I were to buy a Burtz engine for $3900, what is the total cost to get it running without any extras?
Been wondering the same. Surprised someone hasn't ran an ad in the Restorer on News next to the Burtz ad.
goodcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 05:10 PM   #5
Ray in La Mesa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: La Mesa Ca
Posts: 935
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I would think it would be favorable to a rebuilt original engine, with the added bonus of new alloy material in the parts verses fatigued, crack repaired original blocks. The labor cost of pouring, boring & fitting babbitt would bring them close in price.
Ray in La Mesa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 05:30 PM   #6
denniskliesen
Senior Member
 
denniskliesen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 824
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
I want to hear from those running a Burtz engine. If I were to buy a Burtz engine for $3900, what is the total cost to get it running without any extras?
That depends on how you plan on building. The Burtz kit has 5 main journals for crank and camshaft. Itís pressure oil lubed. The crankshaft is, dynamically balanced, counterweighted on each side of all 4 new forged rods. It takes a takes a radial lip seal in the rear. You can either install a 3 journal camshaft or 5 journal cam. All of the inserts are the same as a small block Chevy with 2Ē journal on the rods and mains.

I have over 12,000 miles on my Burtz engine that runs better than my old A engine with less vibration and smoother quieter. As far as Iím concerned you get a lot more bang for your buck with a Burtz kit. Iím getting another Burtz for my pickup beings the engine thatís in it is tired and Iím not wasting money on a tired and stressed block, crank, rods etc engine.
denniskliesen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 09:28 PM   #7
gdmn852
Senior Member
 
gdmn852's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 187
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Hello I have a burtz block on order and plan to build it stock but with higher compression head . Had bad experience with engine shops locally only seem interested in Chevrolet race engines still waiting on Buick engine.
gdmn852 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 09:54 PM   #8
Incognito-A
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 148
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I plan on building one stock with high compression head as well…stay tuned.
Incognito-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 10:04 PM   #9
PC/SR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 1,233
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

No doubt the Burtz engine is better designed and engineered than Henry's original A. To my mind using it is not much different than using a Pinto engine as was used in the Shay, or any other after market engine. To each his own. I am not a purist but I do like the authenticity factor of using the original engine, and mods of a type that were available back in the day if that is fun for you. Hey, what's the fun (and challenge) of owning a Model A if you do not have a knock, rattle, miss, oil, water or gas leak, timing problem, occasional breakdown, etc. I do hope the organizations do not start recognizing the Burtz as a Model A equivalent engine and accepting it in judging and competition.
PC/SR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 10:43 PM   #10
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,335
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Without any extras: In my motor shop, the cost of a Burtz long block without a flywheel and clutch would be $6,500.00
This is using a decked original head, reground original camshaft, new oil pump drive gear and a modified original oil pump that includes a pressure relief and greater flow.
Original and new parts are painted to meet judging standards. Add about $525.00 for a new Burtz flywheel, new V-8 style pressure plate, new ring gear, clutch disk and input shaft bearing. Add about $150 for an oil filter.

Others will have different costs.

From my cost records and recent builds, the cost of a Burtz engine is about $1,700.00 more than a Model A non-pressurized long block. Considering you are getting full oil pressure, 5 main journals @ 2" diameter, a fully counterweighted crankshaft, beefy rods and a rear main seal for $1,700 more than the cost of rebuilding an original block...I think it's a good deal.

I have Burtz engine #7 topped with a Miller High-Speed head in my '31 S/W Town Sedan with about 6,700 miles on it. I'm very satisfied with it.

I understand and respect those that long to keep the Model A's original and those who want a more durable engine or performance engine. To each his own...but I happen to be one of the latter.

Good Day!
www.durableperformance.net
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Miller Hi-Speed topped Burtz.jpg (86.8 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg Miller Burtz left engine bay.jpg (90.6 KB, 127 views)
File Type: jpg Miller Burtz break-in.jpg (91.7 KB, 122 views)

Last edited by Dave in MN; 11-23-2021 at 11:17 AM.
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 10:46 PM   #11
MARKA
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 33
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I agree with PC/SR's post.

If I wanted to put a modern Engine in my Model A ,I would see no point in owning it.
To me part of the experience of driving my Model A is to experience the Model A as it sounded and drove as it did in my A's case in 1930, warts and all.
I would definitely pay more to rebuild a original block if my A's engine needed a rebuild.

I feel that replacing the original block/ engine with a modern repro is the same as putting a diesel engine in an Ocean liner that originally was powered with a steam turbine. It is not the same. It has lost something that makes it unique.

I know that the Burtz Engine is smoother more reliable , more powerful than an original engine/block , but it is destroying the soul of the vehicle.

All things being equal If I were given the choice of buying a Model A that had an original rebuilt Engine or a Model A with a Burtz block I would go for the "A " with the original block engine every time.
I would pay extra for one with the original block. More desirable in my opinion.

This is my personal preference. Time will tell which way it pans out.
Would you buy a1930 Packard with an origional Engine/block or one with a repro block ? Which one is more desirable ?

Mark.
MARKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2021, 11:46 PM   #12
McMimmcs
Senior Member
 
McMimmcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,021
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKA View Post
I agree with PC/SR's post.

If I wanted to put a modern Engine in my Model A ,I would see no point in owning it.
To me part of the experience of driving my Model A is to experience the Model A as it sounded and drove as it did in my A's case in 1930, warts and all.
I would definitely pay more to rebuild a original block if my A's engine needed a rebuild.

I feel that replacing the original block/ engine with a modern repro is the same as putting a diesel engine in an Ocean liner that originally was powered with a steam turbine. It is not the same. It has lost something that makes it unique.

I know that the Burtz Engine is smoother more reliable , more powerful than an original engine/block , but it is destroying the soul of the vehicle.

All things being equal If I were given the choice of buying a Model A that had an original rebuilt Engine or a Model A with a Burtz block I would go for the "A " with the original block engine every time.
I would pay extra for one with the original block. More desirable in my opinion.

This is my personal preference. Time will tell which way it pans out.
Would you buy a1930 Packard with an origional Engine/block or one with a repro block ? Which one is more desirable ?

Mark.
I totally agree with you. I want a stock A like my dad drove. Wayne
McMimmcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 02:01 AM   #13
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,850
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

I think you would have to be pretty good to tell the difference in one compared to the original.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 03:13 AM   #14
s.e.charles
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 26
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKA View Post
...t is destroying the soul of the vehicle....

i have to agree.
s.e.charles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 05:11 AM   #15
Oldbluoval
Senior Member
 
Oldbluoval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Signal Mtn, TN (SE TN)
Posts: 1,533
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

“I’m getting another Burtz for my pickup beings the engine that’s in it is tired and I’m not wasting money on a tired and stressed block, crank, rods etc”

Therein lays the problem. Running out of original blocks and internals that are rebuildable for good service.
Also running out of craftsmen to rebuild original stuff.

Anyone post a pic of Burtz engine in a car?

Last edited by Oldbluoval; 11-19-2021 at 06:36 AM.
Oldbluoval is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 09:42 AM   #16
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,516
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Thanks Dave in Maine, you are the only one who answered my question. Here is why I asked. I need a replacement for a Model "B" engine that is not salvageable.


I have a quote of $4500 for a rebuilt Model "B" short block where I provide the engine. Adding another $500 to get the engine into running condition including a new 6:1 cylinder head, studs, gaskets, etc., plus the cost of a Model "B" engine core, my cost for a rebuilt Model "B" engine will be about $5500.


So the comparison is $5500 for a rebuilt Model "B" engine and $6500 plus shipping for a Burtz engine.



When I started playing with Model A's back in 1962, a rebuilt short block from Sears Roebuck was $39. In 1970, I paid $300 for a rebuild Model "A" long bloc. My my, the cost of our hobby has skyrocketed!
__________________
Bob Bidonde

Last edited by Bob Bidonde; 11-19-2021 at 10:04 AM.
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 10:19 AM   #17
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,335
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Bob Bidonde,
I started with a "B" block in my '31 S/W and had it fail to cracks. I built up another "B" in milder form to lessen the chance of failure again. I was not satisfied with the performance as I plan to pull a camper on a road trip. I replaced it with the Burtz engine topped with a Miller High-Speed head and now have what I feel is necessary to pull the camper. I am not looking to remain stock but like the use of a 4 cylinder block that looks stock.
Good luck with whatever you choose.

FYI: Once assembled, there is only one area on the Burtz block that is an indication it's not an original block. If I did not point it out as to where this is, it would escape all but the very observant.

Good Day!
Dave in Minnesota

Last edited by Dave in MN; 11-22-2021 at 07:14 AM.
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 10:55 AM   #18
Jeff/Illinois
Senior Member
 
Jeff/Illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,599
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Sounds like the price difference between the two options, isn't a deal killer.

Me, I'd spring a few extra bucks for the reliability you will have with Mr. Burtz' new block package. That alone buys peace of mind and would be well worth it to me.

Dennis is proof positive enough with his '29 Tudor with 12,000 miles
Jeff/Illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 10:59 AM   #19
McMimmcs
Senior Member
 
McMimmcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,021
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois View Post
Sounds like the price difference between the two options, isn't a deal killer.

Me, I'd spring a few extra bucks for the reliability you will have with Mr. Burtz' new block package. That alone buys peace of mind and would be well worth it to me.

Dennis is proof positive enough with his '29 Tudor with 12,000 miles
What you say makes good sense ( cents )! Wayne
McMimmcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 11:28 AM   #20
gdmn852
Senior Member
 
gdmn852's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Erie Pa
Posts: 187
Default Re: Cost of Running Burtz Engine

Hello again, as I mentioned I plan to build a Burtz engine with the high compression head , I can understand those wanting an original engine and appreciate those that have built up high points cars. My roadster was converted to hydraulic brakes before I got it also the more I worked on it maybe a collection of flea market parts. My goal is to have a driver type car.Better than a sbc !
gdmn852 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:53 PM.