Electrolysis question

[wrndln]

I am going to try to set up and do some electrolysis on some larger items, like doors, radius rods and maybe some wheels, depending on how well it works. I am planning to purchase a 75 or 100 gallon nonmetallic stock tank from a farm supply store. The main question I have is: Is it OK to have the part being derusted touch the tank? I don't think the sacrificial rods should touch the tank, but not sure about the part in the tank. I have heard from Tom Wesenberg and Dudley that they didn't think the part touching the tank would hurt, but I want to hear from some other people that have done electrolysis to make sure. I don't want to ruin the tank. Also, I plan to use a 12V 10 amp battery charger to supply the current. I also plan to use four 1/2" rebar pieces to use as the sacrificial electrodes. Does this sound right? Any helpful information would be appreciated.
Rusty Nelson

[redmodelt]

It will not effect the cleaning process. But remember, this is a line of site process. If you put the door in flat then the electrodes will need to be paralleled to the flat surface, placed on the floor of the tank. By nonmetallic tank I guess you mean plastic. The process removes the rust not the paint and grease. The waste should be safe for iron loving plants if you just use washing soda with a little salt and rebar, so it should not hurt the tank except for rust stains where the electrodes or part touch it.
Because this is a ling of site process you may have some problems de-rusting between the inner and outer panel of the door.

[Ross/Kzoo]

I don't totally agree with the "line of sight" theory. It works better in a direct line but also goes beyond that. Also clean all grease ,oil and wax off the parts first In my case it also lifted a lot of paint. Don't forget the washing soda.

[Benson]

Rusty,

Here is info on the subject:

http://www.antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
http://www.antique-engines.com/stain...electrodes.htm

Warning from website also explains how to do it!

Quote;

Why you should not use stainless steel electrodes for electrolysis
Many people using the electrolysis method for rust reduction swear by stainless steel, stating (incorrectly) that it's not consumed, stays clean and seems safe.

Stainless steel is indeed consumed when used in the electrolysis process, although slowly. The main problem with using it is the hazardous waste it produces.

Stainless steel contains chromium. The electrodes, and thus the chromium is consumed, and you end up with poisonous chromates in your electrolyte. Dumping these on the ground or down the drain is illegal. The compounds can cause severe skin problems and ultimately, cancer. Hexavalent chromate is poisonous. These compounds are not excused from hazardous waste regulations where household wastes are.
These compounds are bad enough that government regulations mandate "elimination of hexavalent chromate by 2007 for corrosion protection."

Does your electrolyte turn yellow? That's a sign of chromates.
If you have been using stainless steel for the anodes (positive electrodes), wear rubber gloves when working with or near the liquids. If you need to dispose of it, allow it to evaporate into powders and dispose of the powders in sealed containers during your local "hazardous waste clean-up days".
Best bet - don't use stainless steel no matter how tempting it is.

end quote:

1. I found that it removes paint and rust on 16 inch Ford Wheels.

2. Remember that old time paint used to contain LEAD which is toxic!

3. I used a 10 amp 12v charger and four 1/2 inch re-bars about 2 feet long in a 55 gallon plastic barrel.

4. Also used two 1/8th inch steel plates about 6 inches by 12. After 5 wheels the plates were full of holes.

5. Another suggestion: disconnect power before moving parts in the solution or when disconnecting wires ... if you make a spark it could ignite the Hydrogen gas that is given off by the process.

6. Of course do it in a well ventilated area.

7. Vince Falter likes carbon rods for cleaning carburetors.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/elec...cderusting.htm

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo

I don't totally agree with the "line of sight" theory. It works better in a direct line but also goes beyond that. Also clean all grease ,oil and wax off the parts first In my case it also lifted a lot of paint. Don't forget the washing soda.

I agree with Ross about the "line of sight" theory....also...the "sludge" at
the bottom of my tanks(about 2" deep) has too be more than used-up
anodes and rust. It's the correct color for the frame..LOL!
Rusty, remember this, the more surface area of the anodes is one of
the keys to this and this is a big deal. More the merrier on anodes!

[d.j. moordigian]

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Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo

I don't totally agree with the "line of sight" theory. It works better in a direct line but also goes beyond that. Also clean all grease ,oil and wax off the parts first In my case it also lifted a lot of paint. Don't forget the washing soda.

I agree with Ross about the "line of sight" theory....also...the "sludge" at
the bottom of my tanks(about 2" deep) has too be more than used-up
anodes and rust. It's the correct color for the frame..LOL!
Rusty, remember this, the more surface area of the anodes is one of
the keys to this and this is a big deal. More the merrier on anodes!

Man....I need too learn to type faster....

[Stretch Cab]

I keep hearing that the left over water in the tank is harmless to plants but that may not be so. I poured mine on the grass beside the driveway several months ago and it is still brown. Grass is coming back slowly. Great system and I will use it again! Will choose a better spot to empty the tank next time.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Stretch Cab

I keep hearing that the left over water in the tank is harmless to plants but that may not be so. I poured mine on the grass beside the driveway several months ago and it is still brown. Grass is coming back slowly. Great system and I will use it again! Will choose a better spot to empty the tank next time.

The solution prior to being used is harmless, after use it is full of metallic ions etc. If your going to use it again, why did you throw the first lot out. If it stops working, add some more washing soda. I have had a tank for over ten years, and never thrown it out. I just top up with water when it gets down and add washing soda when required.

As for line of sight, it is not. It is slower in the areas that are not line of sight, but it still de-corrodes in areas that the anode cannot see directly. Not only removing corrosion and paint, it will remove grease and oil, just at a slower rate.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by dave in australia

As for line of sight, it is not. It is slower in the areas that are not line of sight, but it still de-corrodes in areas that the anode cannot see directly. Not only removing corrosion and paint, it will remove grease and oil, just at a slower rate.

My theory is that it first attacks what is easiest in the process (line of sight) and then goes for what's left (non line of sight).

[Scott H in Wheaton]

In my tank (a large rubbermaid tote) I hang the part in the middle and I have electrodes in front of it and behind it. My electrodes are rebar with two crossbars welded together so it looks like # . Then I attach the power to two spots on the first electrode and jumper across to the second electrode in two spots.
I found this to be more effective than just 1 wire and just 1 or two rods as electrodes.

It also works better when the part is moved very close to the electrodes, of course making sure they don't touch.

[ctlikon0712]

Does it help or aid the process by moving or rotating that part?
I also just recently read where a lower 1-2 amp works best for restoration in a 48 hour period....
Also, like the carbon rod, is there another material that works better or differently than iron or steel, like Zinc?

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by ctlikon0712

Does it help or aid the process by moving or rotating that part?

I think that it attacks the closest to the electrode first so, yes, rotating and moving does help but I check after 24 hours to see if the "bubbling" process has slowed considerably.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo

My theory is that it first attacks what is easiest in the process (line of sight) and then goes for what's left (non line of sight).

It appears that way, and it does remove rust quicker from areas exposed directly to the anode. But corrosion on the hidden areas are being stripped at the same time, just at a slower rate. It is not area a first then area b, it is bith at the same time, just at different rates. The closer more exposed areas have a higher current density, so the rate is quicker, the same thing happens during the plating process. Metal will be deposited quicker on the edges of a part in a plating tank, resulting in different thickness in different areas of parts.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by dave in australia

It appears that way, and it does remove rust quicker from areas exposed directly to the anode. But corrosion on the hidden areas are being stripped at the same time, just at a slower rate. It is not area a first then area b, it is bith at the same time, just at different rates. The closer more exposed areas have a higher current density, so the rate is quicker.

Yes, what he said. Thanks for clarifying that .

[bart78]

This method works very well. I have done many parts and they came out real good. I have done heads that had a bunch of carbon on them. And if took it off fine. The only draw back to this process. Is that it can take a while some time. For removing rust I think the best way is phosphoric acid. Home Depot sells some called phosphoric etch and prep. It has allways worked the best for me with rust.

[Pinstripe]

Is this the process used by the commercial strippers, such as Redi-Strip, or do they use chemical bath of a different technique. I have not been exposed to this technique before; it is definetely something I will try. Will this derust an overlapping riveted joint at all, or is disassembly the only way? Thanks

[JasonGauthier]

I built a tank using rebar all around the tank as well as at the top and bottom. Wired the rebar together with some scrap wire I had. Worked really well for a Model T engine. I posted info at the MAFCA forum -

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31941.html

Jason

[jhowes]

I also did a model A engine to get the water jacket clear of rust. the engine was buried in the ground for years so I used this method for a year in the tank. it is clean now and runs cool in the hottest weather. I found that the anode could also be copper but the process ate up several electrodes and had to be changed every month.

[1930artdeco]

I was just looking at Mcmaster-carr for carbon rods as I think that is why my set does not work well, since I use rebar. where do people find them? Also, i think i need to replace the cord from the B charger to the clamps. What type of cord should I use?

Mike

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

I was just looking at Mcmaster-carr for carbon rods as I think that is why my set does not work well, since I use rebar. where do people find them? Also, i think i need to replace the cord from the B charger to the clamps. What type of cord should I use?

Mike

Steel bedspring rods worked great for doing my Cub Cadet wheel. Any good flexible wire will work for your battery charger. For a charger 10 amps and under something like 14 guage appliance cord should do the job. I like the flat style twin cord without ground.