Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

[Hoogah]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//PA in the "What's it worth" thread:

"I lose so much time and labor on non fitting / defective aftermarket parts.....its getting worse and worse"

I've wondered about this issue for some time, but Mitch and Rowdy's exchange in the above thread has finally caused me to ask the following question:
Why do we collectively accept parts that don't fit / work? In any other line of business, defective parts are returned to the supplier, a refund issued, feedback provided to the maker, who improves his game in order to stay in business. It's Business Economics 101!

Why does this model of business not apply to the companies that make the parts we purchase? Are we our own worst enemies when we feebly accept that we must modify a part that should fit/work first time?

I don't get it.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Hoogah,
It takes a lots of time & B.S. to get a change made, just like in Congress. "Maybe" changes will be made, after we DIE!!
Bill W.

[larrys40]

I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard

Larry. I could not agree with you more! Nobody is perfect and it is unrealistic to expect others to be! Great post! Wayne

[ericr]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard

I hear what you are saying and the realities you describe make sense, bit some people ask, for example, how a repro hood shelf for the '29s gets made with a mounting hole mis-located. Or how the repro light switch, for example, which as produced, seems not exactly the simplest thing to reproduce and must take some skill and detail , still doesn't get made to be workable.

[Kevin in NJ]

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It is complicated. I have learned a few things over the years.

First is the maker getting correct feedback.
Two things happen that they have to sort through.

You can get people that are clueless and do not understand how to proper install the part or have other bad parts that may make yours part look bad.

You get little or no feedback. Turns out most of the time people get a part and work with it and never talk to the right people about their experiences.

Then there is making a part.
An example I will use is what you might think is a simple panel. The lower rear cross panel for a 28-29 coupe. The repro is flat across the top and does not have the right sizes or proper doublers.
One person looked into what it would take to have the part made correct. The tooling would cost in excess of like $125,000. The part would also require a special run of steel to be able to make the shape. Your only option is to buy a huge roll from the mill. So to make it worth while he would have to sell a lot at like $200 each. People complain when they have to spend the $40 for the bad repro. There was no way to make the part without losing a lot of money.

Then there even finding companies the will make the part. I talked to one well known parts house and the guy told me some of their problems getting parts made. They take the Ford prints and go out for bids to get parts made. No one submits a bid. At times I think they feel lucky to get some kind of part made.

So it is just not as easy as you think to get parts made right. This coming from someone who has cursed the repro parts as much as everyone else. I am also willing at times to lay out money for NOS parts where needed.

So when you are using a repro part and find an issue, explain what you find here on the Fordbarn and let the dealer know. I believe most of the dealers are watching the boards and learning from what they read. Some even participate regularly, Bert's seems to be a stand out business from that respect.

The dealers are trying to make things better, but it not easy to do.

[Mitch//pa]

just to clarify our exchange was regarding the MODERN repo parts market.....

[Jeff/Illinois]

Model A people ARE lucky to have the parts we have. Even some of the NOS stuff didn't really fit right, like they were factory rejects sent on to the dealers to let them make the parts work

I imagine restoring a '28-'31 Chevy is a bit of a nightmare. Never mind a Graham, Paige, Auburn, what have you.

I guess it comes back to what Brent Terry has said for years---- take your original part and try like heck to restore it and put it back in service. Harder route to go but sometimes the best advice.

[Rowdy]

Yip, the discussion was about the junk plugging up my shop. Fuel pump, seems third time was a charm. I am not sure what the odds of getting 2 bad fuel pumps in a row, but just did it. Thankfully my pickup is back on the road after being broke since early July. New clutch, fuel pump and some general repairs. New head gaskets in my wifes car and new fuel pump and ignition switch in my daughters car. Not to mention the brake job on my parents Blazer, which I ended up with 1 bad caliper and a defective hose. Had .006 taper on theating surface that would not allow it to seal. All are out of my shop now. Maybe home won't feel like a continuation of work for a while. Rod

[2manycars]

I once asked Al Lepore of A&L paarts why he did not make a headlamp socket asssembly, as the repros were really poor. He said it would cost $10,000 to make the tooling, back then. How many would you need to sell to break even?
I am glad we have what is available, even though some is rather poor quality. There are parts that are made by more than one supplier, and the quality varies. I had a customer bring me rumble lid stop brackets from Mac's and they looked like they were made in India in someone's back yard with a hammer. I told him to get better ones, and he ordered from Bratton, and they were correct, and much stronger. It pays to shop around.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

I once asked Al Lepore of A&L paarts why he did not make a headlamp socket asssembly, as the repros were really poor. He said it would cost $10,000 to make the tooling, back then. How many would you need to sell to break even?
I am glad we have what is available, even though some is rather poor quality. There are parts that are made by more than one supplier, and the quality varies. I had a customer bring me rumble lid stop brackets from Mac's and they looked like they were made in India in someone's back yard with a hammer. I told him to get better ones, and he ordered from Bratton, and they were correct, and much stronger. It pays to shop around.

I assume that was some years ago and sure, that would be a bite for him alone, but if a price like that were able to be divided up among numerous dealers, suddenly it is not so prohibitive. In the same breath I realize not all retailers would participate and for that or any number of reasons such an endeavor would be complicated, not knowing the total picture of the business.

[SteveB31]

Great thread.

Cost (price) is 99% of the problem. I had three guys call me this week wanting Chinese steering wheels (we only sell USA Made ones) because they are $20 cheaper. Who would of thunk that? Happens all the time.

Steve @ Bert's

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

Great thread.

Cost (price) is 99% of the problem. I had three guys call me this week wanting Chinese steering wheels (we only sell USA Made ones) because they are $20 cheaper. Who would of thunk that? Happens all the time.

Steve @ Bert's

Steve, do you mind me asking how the quality control system works from your perspective? How are repro parts tested before full scale production? How is feedback used to improve parts that fall short of requirements? How hard is it for you to facilitate improvement within your suppliers, and what are the impediments?

What should we, the customers, be doing?

[burner31]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

Great thread.

Cost (price) is 99% of the problem. I had three guys call me this week wanting Chinese steering wheels (we only sell USA Made ones) because they are $20 cheaper. Who would of thunk that? Happens all the time.

Steve @ Bert's

Must be the reason I have found myself getting 99.5% of my parts from Bert's.
I like how they re-use packaging too, I got an order from them awhile ago and what the boxes said they contained were not the parts that I ordered, so I called them, they asked if I had opened the boxes, I replied "no, those were not the parts that I ordered"
They said open up the boxes...and lo and behold...there were my parts.
It's like a surprise Christmas everytime I order, haven't had a misfire yet from Bert's.
Have a Model A parts shop down in the city (OKC), nothing but misfires, maybe their counter people should own or at least know a little bit about the cars they are trying to supply. (Their employee parking lot is full of Honda's/Kia's and the like)

I don't know, and I'm not sure, but I have the feeling that most, if not all of Bert's people own a Model A...or have worked on one.

With Winter coming on I'll be going up to 99.9%

And no I'm not a paid actor...just my humble opinion.

[RobertB]

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire...we may live long enough to see restorers using 3-D printers to replicate parts. I just saw an auction with three of the printers for sale, so it's no longer "new" tecnology.

I do understand that the cost of making a steel part with one of these is very expensive. The fellow that made a working 1911 Colt, 45 acp, said it cost well over a hundred thousand for the first one...if memory servces.

But the day will probably come where the garage owner will get all his parts this way....just punch in the numbers and the copier spits out the parts. Who remembers how much carbon paper and typwrites a company used to burn through.

Just saying, we only have to live to be a couple of hundred years old to have easy access to the parts!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part? For example, someone mentioned a stop light switch. 'WHY' is a stop light switch needed? In reality, there are many used ones out there that would serve well as a core for restoring. Is the issue that the "new widget" purchaser does not have the ability to restore it, -or is it a case where they do not want to spend the effort (too lazy.)??

My personal perspective on much of this is we have chosen the avenue with the least amount of friction. If the price of the new brake light switch was $100, then we might just choose to find & restore an original one. I think that mindset drives the quality & pricing of many new repro parts. gain, I can prove it scenario after scenario where a better quality item was offered and people balked at the price until the quality item is no longer being produced.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part? For example, someone mentioned a stop light switch. 'WHY' is a stop light switch needed? In reality, there are many used ones out there that would serve well as a core for restoring. Is the issue that the "new widget" purchaser does not have the ability to restore it, -or is it a case where they do not want to spend the effort (too lazy.)??

My personal perspective on much of this is we have chosen the avenue with the least amount of friction. If the price of the new brake light switch was $100, then we might just choose to find & restore an original one. I think that mindset drives the quality & pricing of many new repro parts. gain, I can prove it scenario after scenario where a better quality item was offered and people balked at the price until the quality item is no longer being produced.

Well, since I brought it up, I will answer the "why". I can only speak for myself but I really don't have the life situation to troll swap meets in distant places in endless pursuit of a desirable unit at an acceptable price.

As to your second thought, I can't dispute a correlation between reproduction cost and restoration cost but I also think availability is a factor.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?
. . . . . Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard

Don't get me wrong, Larry, I'm grateful, but I still don't get how parts suppliers can be proud of a product that doesn't fit without modification, or how parts makers even got to the point where they churn out a whole run of ill-fitting parts! Where was the testing phase?

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

It is complicated. I have learned a few things over the years. . . . .First is the maker getting correct feedback. . . . So when you are using a repro part and find an issue, explain what you find here on the Fordbarn and let the dealer know?

Surely this must not be happening and we are to blame?

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

just to clarify our exchange was regarding the MODERN repo parts market.....

Sorry for the mis-quote Mitch, but it doesn't matter now, I guess.

Originally Posted by ericr

I hear what you are saying and the realities you describe make sense, bit some people ask, for example, how a repro hood shelf for the '29s gets made with a mounting hole mis-located. Or how the repro light switch, for example, which as produced, seems not exactly the simplest thing to reproduce and must take some skill and detail , still doesn't get made to be workable.

Exactly my point. Why was this testing not done before a whole run of faulty parts was churned out? This is Business 101!

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part?

I guess we're all coming from different places in terms of our resources, time and skill set. I'd rather use original parts on my survivor any day, but if it comes down to not driving my car for 2, 6, or.12 months while I find an original versus using a repro part and keep driving, somewhere I'm gonna compromise in order to keep enjoying the other 99.99% of my car!!

Originally Posted by Synchro909

In relation to giving feedback, I used to buy a lot of stuff from Snyders and on one or two occasions, I gave them feedback which was never acted upon. It was only last week that I tried to contact them again after Mike V in Florida said that he had let them know of the trouble anybody outside the US has contacting them. My message encountered an "Unexpected Error" again. This leads me to comment Snyders won't listen to feedback anyway so why would anybody expect them to take any action. Hopeless!
I've since started buying elsewhere.

Business 101 not working at Snyders, but is alive and well at Synchro's house!
If we collectively and gently "pushed back" on this issue, surely things would get better.

[George Miller]

In my Humble OP. For me if you can not make it right, do not make it at all. How long would your engine last if all parts were wrong.
After many years of maching parts it is not that hard to get them right. Ether they do not know how or they do not care. Sheet metal may be another thing. I'm not a sheet metal guy. If I was I would not make parts to sale if I could not make them right.

[Synchro909]

In relation to giving feedback, I used to buy a lot of stuff from Snyders and on one or two occasions, I gave them feedback which was never acted upon. It was only last week that I tried to contact them again after Mike V in Florida said that he had let them know of the trouble anybody outside the US has contacting them. My message encountered an "Unexpected Error" again. This leads me to comment Snyders won't listen to feedback anyway so why would anybody expect them to take any action. Hopeless!
I've since started buying elsewhere.