PPG Omni Urethane or the Concept DCC

[Model A Ron]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

The early 30 AA Cab and Chassis is Ron Avakian's and he did spray it in Concept with a flattening agent. The other is a 29 AA with a special body used for duck hunting in the LA area. It belongs to Dr. Karl Wehrley and did receive a Henry at the 2011 San Diego MARC Meet. I'm not sure if it is painted in Concept.

If the flatting agent what you use with your paint to spray the firewall and door jams with to give it the non buffed look?

[Oldbluoval]

I’m not a fine point guy!
I’ve never had flattening agent put in paint except for top irons and some chassis black

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by Model A Ron

If the flatting agent what you use with your paint to spray the firewall and door jams with to give it the non buffed look?

The flattening agent. You can make paint any gloss with it. The only thing is that the measurements have to be pretty precise so a scale is pretty much necessary.

Now whether that is how it looked originally is up for debate...

[Gary Karr]

The flattening agents are used to flatten the paint down so that it should look like unpolished lacquer. They are pretty much adding talc to your paints. One of the issues is that the hardeners will also give the paints more of a glossy look.

[Model A Ron]

Does anyone have photos of what the firewall and door jams should look like in Ford Maroon? That's the original color of my Victoria and that's what she will be painted in.

[Kevin in NJ]

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Marcos used DCC single stage paint on his car.

He flattened the paint for the areas that would not be polished. The problem is you have to spray it perfect because flattened paint will buff out to a shine. So you cant fix your errors.

Then he sprayed out the buffed areas and polished them to cut down the shine. Modern paints are too reflective if done right. So by buffing out the paint you dull it a bit. It still is too reflective compared to factory paint, but what options do you have today?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

This is kinda getting interesting. To begin with so that we are all in agreement, just because someone has won a Henry with something in the past does not ensure that it can be done again. I am NOT saying you cannot win a Henry with DCC paint, -but what I am saying is the judging process is an ever-evolving process as ways to make things appear more aesthetically authentic are implemented.

With the above said, Terry Deters and I had a conversation awhile back about using flattening agents in urethanes and the look it creates. Terry is generally the Team Captain for Area 14, so it would likely pay for whomever to discuss some of this with him once they are ready to authentically paint.

The first take-away is that flattened urethane paint does not totally replicate the look of nitrocellulose lacquer. It does from a distance when you are seeking a satin finish however the texture does not replicate the lacquer because it usually is too smooth. I actually purchased a can of old nitrocellulose lacquer and did several sprayouts following the process that was used during production. This gives a baseline for the painter to match.

Next, it is mentioned above about door jambs. To be aesthetically correct, there really needs to be two different levels of satin paint in the jambs. The original process of painting the lacquer was done in a two step process where the first application was done in a two-direction pass (likely sprayed with an economical thinner). Lacquer dries very fast, and so the second application of paint was likely done within 10-15 minutes likely sprayed with a retarder added to the thinners. Then after a few hours it was color-sanded all over the exterior panels including certain areas of the jambs and sills. After drying, lacquer thinner (likely again with retarder) was sprayed onto all of those sanded areas to soften the non-cured lacquer and make the paint flow out. Then the paint was cured. Afterwards, these areas were hand-rubbed with compound, and then machine polished for the shine. So with regard to the textures, the sill areas of the door jamb and the Quarter Lock Pillar & Quarter Hinge pillars (-not Cowl Pillars) had less texture than seat risers and inside of the Dash (a/k/a firewall), floor panels, or the forward sills. The inside of the engine compartment had the same additional texture along with the underside of the body panels too.

Then factor in Ron's 190A and the painting detail level gets even more complicated because of the preservative paint used on the sills, and the possibility the vehicle was painted prior to shipping from the body vendor. At that time, the bodies were again sprayed at the Branch with just enough paint to ensure the tint would match the hood. This allows for additional mill thicknesses and a different level of overspray in the jambs and sills.

[chrs1961815]

This also brings up a good point about lacquer. Having sprayed it myself and talking to guys who used to spray nitrocellulose lacquer, the gloss can change depending on the temperature and humidity. It is one of those things where some cars looked a little different than others so in all true reality there is no one "correct" originally. Only the baseline from the Judging Standards.

[Model A Ron]

Very Interesting to hear the way the 190A's were painted. I did not know that.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

This also brings up a good point about lacquer. Having sprayed it myself and talking to guys who used to spray nitrocellulose lacquer, the gloss can change depending on the temperature and humidity. It is one of those things where some cars looked a little different than others so in all true reality there is no one "correct" originally. Only the baseline from the Judging Standards.

I'm not sure if that is an accurate statement from my perspective. Here's why.

The RG&JS Book is not a definitive guide to how a Model-A was originally constructed. It has inaccuracies and does not cover all possibilities in exacting definition as it was originally. Therefore the RG&JS is simply the 'rule book' by which the game is played on 'Judging Day'. Think about the game of baseball and compare the two to the game of baseball. When explaining this to a customer I typically use the analogy that we all likely learned the game playing with the neighborhood boys in a vacant lot, or in the street. We made up our own rules what was a home run and the distances between the bases. Then some of us graduated to Little League which had a different set of rules on how the 'game' would be officiated (i.e.: judged). Then there was Pony Leagues and the Major League Baseball Ass'n that we could move up to. Each group has its' own rules, and if you want to play then you play to their rules. The same applies to MARC/MAFCA Adjudication. You should restore your Model-A to whatever level you decide best fits your goals, however if you want to receive a successful score to win the Henry, you really need to build to the guidelines of how the RG&JS want it to be assembled. Does that make sense??

[chrs1961815]

Brent, that was more or less what I was trying to say but it didn't come out like that. An elaboration of what I said in red is that when it comes to paint, there were a lot of variations when it came to many different things. Some of them were in the painter's control (how much paint to spray) and some was in the weather (temperature and humidity). Not to mention all of the different parts to bells and air lines and pressure. None of this probably matters now as it makes sense from a judging standpoint to have one correct way.

[BashawT]

I just ordered some DCC-9300 this morning and my PPG rep said that PPG just gave him notice that they are indeed in the process of moving out the Concept line. I asked what a replacement would be and he said the Delfleet line would be a comparable. I've sprayed lots of both and still prefer the Concept over Delfleet. Delfleet is similar to PPG Imron with both being more of a commercial/fleet coating system.

Now I feel like we've been talking about Concept being phased out for years now so I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a healthy New Year

- Travis in Green Bay, WI

[chrs1961815]

I wouldn't be surprised. DCC doesn't make a lot of money for PPG. This has been a rumor for many years.

[Oldbluoval]

My dealer told me the same thing last week. They are unable to mix certain formulas as they are not re-ordering certain toners/tints. So far I’m covered but not a big user.

[Model A Ron]

Is PPG Concept the best high quality paint or does a different manufacture offer something as good or better?

[Ed in Maine]

Before you go with PPG, take a look at TCP Global Urethane Paint. I started with the a PPG dealer and the guy was no good at mixing paint. I then went with TCP Global and they were half the cost of PPG. Their Urethane Paint is wonderful. Ed

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by Model A Ron

Is PPG Concept the best high quality paint or does a different manufacture offer something as good or better?

Is it the best - that is extremely subjective. The main difference between higher quality and lower quality paints is the concentration of pigment and the UV resistance. Concept has a lot of pigments and is very thick as opposed to cheaper paints that are already thin before mixing (Omni, Nason). There are other products out there that are just as good. I use a lot of products from a German company called MIPA for example.

The reason why PPG is used the most is because shops sign contracts with them that trap them for a certain amount of years.

I will say there are better primers out there than DP90 and Mp282. Those are a very poor base for spraying quality paint over. Just my two cents, been painting for over 40 years.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by Model A Ron

Is PPG Concept the best high quality paint or does a different manufacture offer something as good or better?

Yes! There are several paints that are better than PPG. I personally won't use PPG, but that's based on my personal experience with it several years ago on numerous cars.

I think you need to determine what look you're going for. Original look, glossy, best UV protection, chip resistance, etc. Do you want a lacquer, enamel, urethane? Solvent or water based? There are a lot of choices.

Then pick the best paint you can afford that meets your goals.

There's been a lot of consolidation in the paint supply industry over the last 10 years, with several brands being produced by only a handful of manufacturers. I personally like Glasurit, Pro Spray, Spies Hecker, and others.

[Model A Ron]

[QUOTE=Hitman;2087500]
I think you need to determine what look you're going for. Original look, glossy, best UV protection, chip resistance, etc. Do you want a lacquer, enamel, urethane? Solvent or water based?


Ok that's fair. I want to go Urethane, have the best UV protection and chip resistance I can get. I am looking for a high end paint that will stay on the car for a very long time. I thought Concept fit the bill so if it's not tell me what's better?

[chrs1961815]

Spies Hecker is supposedly some of the best paint you can get. It is expensive and when I delivered paint it was only used by a few very high end restoration shops. The only problem you will run into is that there are a lot of PPG codes out there for Model A colors which are useless to Spies Hecker. You would have to start anew.