The Ford Barn

Maclab58 · 03-13-2011, 09:44 PM

Ok guys, I need some guidance. I have a 28 Sport Coupe with a new touring engine. It has insert bearings, balanced crank and a 6.0 compression cylinder head and the original 6 volt system but with a 6V alternator. The starter will get it started but cranks slowly. Once its started and running and gets warmed up if it stalls or I turn it off it doesnt have enough power to turn it over to start. I have cleaned the armature, cleaned the brushes, greased the armature shaft etc. Do I need to go to 12 volt? Suggestions? I am very frustrated and not sure what to do next.

TK in LA · 03-13-2011, 09:56 PM

First thing that comes to mind is the grounds. Are they clean and in good condition. Did you make sure that the starter is grounded well to the bell housing. I know there will be other sugestions from those with more knowledge but that's my 2¢
Tom

1931 flamingo · 03-13-2011, 09:56 PM

How new is the engine? What were the brg tolerances? Was it bored? Is timing correct? Good ground? What does your builder say? If I had just dumped that much money, that's where I'd be asking questions first. JMO
Paul in CT

ford1 · 03-13-2011, 09:59 PM

make sure you have a good battery,then check all grounds, run a heavy ground from the battery to the engine, dont run it to an exhaust manifold bolt, run another grond from the engine to a bolt holding the starter to the bell housing, run another to the frame from the engine, most problems like yours are caused by 3 problems, bad starter, bad battery, and bad grounds

JC60B · 03-13-2011, 10:01 PM

How are your starter bushings . If they are worn too much the starter could drag.

Special Coupe Frank · 03-13-2011, 10:01 PM

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Sounds like it could be one of the following:

Undersized battery cables

Poor grounds

Dying battery ( old age )

Tight engine ( if less than 500-1,000 miles on it )

Can you borrow another starter to try ?

Kurt in NJ · 03-13-2011, 10:04 PM

It could be paint ---too much paint can cause a bad ground, measure the voltage at the battery cranking, then at the starter and see if there is a loss of voltage, it has to be done under load (cranking)

The armature can look clean ,but have high mica between the segments that can cause the brushes to not conduct well.

The engine could be still tight, you said it was new, how many miles do you have on it ---does it rock on compression when you shut it off (bounces backwards a little) or does it stop like a brake was put on??

How well does it hand crank?

How new is the battery??, is it fully charged ?---I don't mean just off a charger, what is the hydrometer reading?

Are your battery cables heavy gauge wire for 6V systems, or are they from the local parts store shelf 6 gauge wire?

Is the alternator belt tight enough to spin the alternator enough to charge the battery properly ( if you can turn the pulley by hand and it slips on the belt it is not tight enough)

Maclab58 · 03-13-2011, 10:07 PM

Its a new engine, less than 200 miles. Battery is less than a year old. Of note, The starter would spin the old engine with no problem. nothing has changed except the new engine. As for hand cranking................... forget it. Too tight!

Special Coupe Frank · 03-13-2011, 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Maclab58;175829]Its a new engine, less than 200 miles. Battery is less than a year old. Of note, The starter would spin the old engine with no problem. nothing has changed except the new engine. As for hand cranking................... forget it. Too tight![/QUOTE]

I think you've zeroed-in on it... tight engine; especially if things are worse when the engine gets warm. Plus the higher compression.

As Kevin asked: when you shut the engine down, does the engine come to a dead-stop, like letting go of the "dead-man" handle on modern push-mower, or does it rock backwards against engine compression just before coming to rest ? If the engine stops "tight", that's why you're having starter problems.

Jordan · 03-13-2011, 10:50 PM

How long did you let the car sit in between engines? The battery could be going weak. A 6 volt battery aren't known for their ability to age well. I've had one go bad in less than a month. Check the water in the battery. As for going to 12v, it's not necessary, but it is a nice change if you're not looking for trophy in fine points. In my area, I can think of only 2 cars that tour often that still run the generators, and they both have the voltage regulator on them, which in my opinion is not really a generator anymore, instead acting as an alternator. With 12v you get Longer battery life, faster starts, you can get bulbs at any auto store, ect ect. It's a change I would make.

B0B · 03-13-2011, 11:29 PM

My rebuitl Engine did the same thing ...I installed a HEAVY ground cable from the battery ground point on the frame over to the lower bolt on the STARTER the cable I used was an old piece of welding cable very thick and very flexible #2 cable as I recall It turns over GREAT now ... If you install an extra ground cable like this take the ground strap loose from the chassis and clean up the area where it bolts on the frame down to bare metal using coarse grade sand paper clean the ground strap too then when you re-attach the ground that goes to the battery and the extra ground cable on the same bolt and the starter bolt put a dab of grease on those spots to prevent corrosion to keep the contact good...You can use smaller diameter cable for the extra ground too if you want it does not have to carry all of the current you can use the smaller size they use for 12 volt cars one may do the job ok for an extra ground to the starter or run two of them in Parallel to get the extra current capacity if needed.... B0B in Michigan

B0B · 03-13-2011, 11:31 PM

Just to clarify when I say the Lower bolt on the starter I mean the LOWER STARTER MOUNTING BOLT ...Of course for the ground B0B in MIchigan Again

Tom Wesenberg · 03-13-2011, 11:38 PM

I have to disagree with Jordan on many of his ideas. The longest life I ever got from a battery was a 6 volt Interstate battery that lasted over 10 years. The shortest life I've gotten from batteries is 12 volt Interstates. For 12 volt batteries I've had the best life from Sears Diehards. Regulating a generator doesn't change it to an alternator in any way, but does give the same benefits of any modern generator or alternator, which is regulated. I like 6 volts and have no trouble finding batteries and bulbs.

As far as the engine being tight, I like to run a fresh engine for about 30 minutes, then let it cool, and repeat several times like this until it loosens up. I've run Mark's engine about 1 1/2 hours, but haven't tried to hand start it yet. It might take a few hundred miles before it is easy to hand crank, but the 6 volt battery fires it right off.

As Jordan said, the battery could be going bad. I would take a hydrometer reading of each cell, after it's been on a slow charge for 6 hours or so. Right after trying to start the car hot, and if it doesn't start, then feel the battery posts, and other connections in the starting circuit. Any hot connection means a poor connection.

Mike V. Florida · 03-14-2011, 02:18 AM

have the alt checked, it could be that it is not charging the battery correctly due to a problem or you have not not reaced the RPM it needs to start charging. They sell different pulleys to use with Alternators to help with the rpm thing.

billwill · 03-14-2011, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maclab58

Ok guys, I need some guidance. I have a 28 Sport Coupe with a new touring engine. It has insert bearings, balanced crank and a 6.0 compression cylinder head and the original 6 volt system but with a 6V alternator. The starter will get it started but cranks slowly. Once its started and running and gets warmed up if it stalls or I turn it off it doesnt have enough power to turn it over to start. I have cleaned the armature, cleaned the brushes, greased the armature shaft etc. Do I need to go to 12 volt? Suggestions? I am very frustrated and not sure what to do next.

check all groundsto be clean and tight.

George Miller · 03-14-2011, 07:08 AM

As far as the engine being tight, I like to run a fresh engine for about 30 minutes, then let it cool, and repeat several times like this until it loosens up. I've run Mark's engine about 1 1/2 hours, but haven't tried to hand start it yet. It might take a few hundred miles before it is easy to hand crank, but the 6 volt battery fires it right off.
__________________________________________________ ________________

This is the way I have done it for many years, it works the best for a tight engine. Your engine is on the tight side, I would run it like Tom says. If you drive it when it is this tight, you might score a cylinder wall. Run it at a fast idle tell water temp is normal then let it cool and do it again. Keep this up until engine turns with the starter.

alarot · 03-14-2011, 07:29 AM

I had my Ford 2N shortblock rebuilt and it took FOREVER(and 2starters) to get it broken in enough to start easily which it has done for 10 years. People may laugh but Marvel Mystery Oil (directly in each cyl. and in the gas) really seemed to help. At the time I was really angry and frustrated!

03-13-2011, 09:44 PM	#1
Maclab58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Wichita Falls, Texas Posts: 983	hard to start Ok guys, I need some guidance. I have a 28 Sport Coupe with a new touring engine. It has insert bearings, balanced crank and a 6.0 compression cylinder head and the original 6 volt system but with a 6V alternator. The starter will get it started but cranks slowly. Once its started and running and gets warmed up if it stalls or I turn it off it doesnt have enough power to turn it over to start. I have cleaned the armature, cleaned the brushes, greased the armature shaft etc. Do I need to go to 12 volt? Suggestions? I am very frustrated and not sure what to do next.

03-13-2011, 09:56 PM	#3
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: hard to start How new is the engine? What were the brg tolerances? Was it bored? Is timing correct? Good ground? What does your builder say? If I had just dumped that much money, that's where I'd be asking questions first. JMO Paul in CT

03-13-2011, 09:59 PM	#4
ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: oroville ca. Posts: 1,554	Re: hard to start make sure you have a good battery,then check all grounds, run a heavy ground from the battery to the engine, dont run it to an exhaust manifold bolt, run another grond from the engine to a bolt holding the starter to the bell housing, run another to the frame from the engine, most problems like yours are caused by 3 problems, bad starter, bad battery, and bad grounds

03-13-2011, 10:01 PM	#5
JC60B Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 85	Re: hard to start How are your starter bushings . If they are worn too much the starter could drag.

03-13-2011, 10:01 PM	#6
Special Coupe Frank Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Penna Posts: 2,108	Re: hard to start Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Sounds like it could be one of the following: Undersized battery cables Poor grounds Dying battery ( old age ) Tight engine ( if less than 500-1,000 miles on it ) Can you borrow another starter to try ?

03-13-2011, 09:56 PM	#2
TK in LA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: La Verne, Ca. Posts: 827	Re: hard to start First thing that comes to mind is the grounds. Are they clean and in good condition. Did you make sure that the starter is grounded well to the bell housing. I know there will be other sugestions from those with more knowledge but that's my 2¢ Tom

03-13-2011, 10:04 PM	#7
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: hard to start It could be paint ---too much paint can cause a bad ground, measure the voltage at the battery cranking, then at the starter and see if there is a loss of voltage, it has to be done under load (cranking) The armature can look clean ,but have high mica between the segments that can cause the brushes to not conduct well. The engine could be still tight, you said it was new, how many miles do you have on it ---does it rock on compression when you shut it off (bounces backwards a little) or does it stop like a brake was put on?? How well does it hand crank? How new is the battery??, is it fully charged ?---I don't mean just off a charger, what is the hydrometer reading? Are your battery cables heavy gauge wire for 6V systems, or are they from the local parts store shelf 6 gauge wire? Is the alternator belt tight enough to spin the alternator enough to charge the battery properly ( if you can turn the pulley by hand and it slips on the belt it is not tight enough)

03-13-2011, 10:07 PM	#8
Maclab58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Wichita Falls, Texas Posts: 983	Re: hard to start Its a new engine, less than 200 miles. Battery is less than a year old. Of note, The starter would spin the old engine with no problem. nothing has changed except the new engine. As for hand cranking................... forget it. Too tight!

03-13-2011, 10:29 PM	#9
Special Coupe Frank Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Penna Posts: 2,108	Re: hard to start [QUOTE=Maclab58;175829]Its a new engine, less than 200 miles. Battery is less than a year old. Of note, The starter would spin the old engine with no problem. nothing has changed except the new engine. As for hand cranking................... forget it. Too tight![/QUOTE] I think you've zeroed-in on it... tight engine; especially if things are worse when the engine gets warm. Plus the higher compression. As Kevin asked: when you shut the engine down, does the engine come to a dead-stop, like letting go of the "dead-man" handle on modern push-mower, or does it rock backwards against engine compression just before coming to rest ? If the engine stops "tight", that's why you're having starter problems.

03-13-2011, 10:50 PM	#10
Jordan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ft. Worth Posts: 1,006	Re: hard to start How long did you let the car sit in between engines? The battery could be going weak. A 6 volt battery aren't known for their ability to age well. I've had one go bad in less than a month. Check the water in the battery. As for going to 12v, it's not necessary, but it is a nice change if you're not looking for trophy in fine points. In my area, I can think of only 2 cars that tour often that still run the generators, and they both have the voltage regulator on them, which in my opinion is not really a generator anymore, instead acting as an alternator. With 12v you get Longer battery life, faster starts, you can get bulbs at any auto store, ect ect. It's a change I would make.

03-13-2011, 11:29 PM	#11
B0B Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 82	Re: hard to start My rebuitl Engine did the same thing ...I installed a HEAVY ground cable from the battery ground point on the frame over to the lower bolt on the STARTER the cable I used was an old piece of welding cable very thick and very flexible #2 cable as I recall It turns over GREAT now ... If you install an extra ground cable like this take the ground strap loose from the chassis and clean up the area where it bolts on the frame down to bare metal using coarse grade sand paper clean the ground strap too then when you re-attach the ground that goes to the battery and the extra ground cable on the same bolt and the starter bolt put a dab of grease on those spots to prevent corrosion to keep the contact good...You can use smaller diameter cable for the extra ground too if you want it does not have to carry all of the current you can use the smaller size they use for 12 volt cars one may do the job ok for an extra ground to the starter or run two of them in Parallel to get the extra current capacity if needed.... B0B in Michigan

03-13-2011, 11:31 PM	#12
B0B Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 82	Re: hard to start Just to clarify when I say the Lower bolt on the starter I mean the LOWER STARTER MOUNTING BOLT ...Of course for the ground B0B in MIchigan Again

03-13-2011, 11:38 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: hard to start I have to disagree with Jordan on many of his ideas. The longest life I ever got from a battery was a 6 volt Interstate battery that lasted over 10 years. The shortest life I've gotten from batteries is 12 volt Interstates. For 12 volt batteries I've had the best life from Sears Diehards. Regulating a generator doesn't change it to an alternator in any way, but does give the same benefits of any modern generator or alternator, which is regulated. I like 6 volts and have no trouble finding batteries and bulbs. As far as the engine being tight, I like to run a fresh engine for about 30 minutes, then let it cool, and repeat several times like this until it loosens up. I've run Mark's engine about 1 1/2 hours, but haven't tried to hand start it yet. It might take a few hundred miles before it is easy to hand crank, but the 6 volt battery fires it right off. As Jordan said, the battery could be going bad. I would take a hydrometer reading of each cell, after it's been on a slow charge for 6 hours or so. Right after trying to start the car hot, and if it doesn't start, then feel the battery posts, and other connections in the starting circuit. Any hot connection means a poor connection. Last edited by Tom Wesenberg; 03-13-2011 at 11:53 PM.

03-14-2011, 02:18 AM	#14
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: hard to start have the alt checked, it could be that it is not charging the battery correctly due to a problem or you have not not reaced the RPM it needs to start charging. They sell different pulleys to use with Alternators to help with the rpm thing. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

03-14-2011, 07:08 AM	#16
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: hard to start As far as the engine being tight, I like to run a fresh engine for about 30 minutes, then let it cool, and repeat several times like this until it loosens up. I've run Mark's engine about 1 1/2 hours, but haven't tried to hand start it yet. It might take a few hundred miles before it is easy to hand crank, but the 6 volt battery fires it right off. __________________________________________________ ________________ This is the way I have done it for many years, it works the best for a tight engine. Your engine is on the tight side, I would run it like Tom says. If you drive it when it is this tight, you might score a cylinder wall. Run it at a fast idle tell water temp is normal then let it cool and do it again. Keep this up until engine turns with the starter.

03-14-2011, 07:29 AM	#17
alarot Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 32	Re: hard to start I had my Ford 2N shortblock rebuilt and it took FOREVER(and 2starters) to get it broken in enough to start easily which it has done for 10 years. People may laugh but Marvel Mystery Oil (directly in each cyl. and in the gas) really seemed to help. At the time I was really angry and frustrated!