Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury

[Merc Cruzer]

Normally I adjust the timing on the engine by vacuum: adjust the distributor to get highest vacuum then back off slightly.

Recently, I have been chasing gremlins in the carburetor (over rich), and hesitation when acceleration from a stop.

I set the dwell with a meter, rather than feeler gauges.

Decided to set the timing with a timing light. The dot on the top of the pulley is 2 degrees BTDC. So to set the initial timing, I was informed that I should start 1/4" to the right of the dot. I reset the timing accordingly and the car ran but not well. When idling it seemed to be starving for air, until I accelerated, then it stumbled and cleared somewhat, but still didn't run well. The carburetor had been marked by the prior owner with a notch matching the hold down bracket. I rest the distributor to batch the marking and the car ran beautifully, with no hesitation on acceleration or issues of starving for air when idling.

Now here is the issue. The timing when the car is running well and using the marking on the distributor, is 1 1/2" to the right (advanced) of the dot on the pulley. What would account for this?

The # 1 plug wire is at the bottom (6 o'clock) on the distributor. This is is a stock/original distributor. The timing light is a Sears/Penske, from the 70's.

[JWL]

Try a different timing light.

[tubman]

Is that an advance timing light? I have had two of them, and they both went bad shortly after using them. I would follow "JWL"'s advice.

[Merc Cruzer]

Thank you both for the response and recommendations. Would one of the newer timing lights work, or would the ignition system (solid core wires) interfere? Any suggestions as to brands and models?

[51 MERC-CT]

And of course you have had the vacuum to the vacuum canister disconnected and plugged while setting the timing?

[Merc Cruzer]

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Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

And of course you have had the vacuum to the vacuum canister disconnected and plugged while setting the timing?

Yes, as to having the vacuum advance being disconnected and the carb blocked off.

Can these timing lights be re-collaborated, or is this just a throw a way?

[19Fordy]

Would it be possible to lift and rotate the distributor gear one tooth so that the hold down nut is more centered on the distributor hold down flange and the rotor is still at 6 o'clock?

[Fordestes]

If all else fails use the test light method, turn crank to top dead center or the factory timing mark aligned with the crankshaft timing mark which ever you choose ,remove the dist. cap and rotor, connect a test light to the wire on the points turn on the ignition loosen distributor and turn distributor where the test light just comes on ,this is the most accurate way to set the timing with the timing marks on the crankshaft to timing cover , re assemble with the distributor clamp tightened and vacuum advance disconnected, check the reading with your timing light, as we know the Load a Matic Distributor does not use centrifugal advance, the timing marks should read very close if not on the mark due to any small variations caused slack in the timing gears due to gear wear or cam walk (end play) in the camshaft.

[supereal]

Be sure that the keyway in the crank pulley isn't damaged, or the key, itself, isn't swedged. If the crank bolt has become loosened at some time, it doesn't take long to do it.

[Ggmac]

If the timing light doesn't have an adjustment knob on it I DOUBT ITS BAD .only the adjustable advance lights can go bad . I'm still using the same light you have . I bought it new and used it for many years every day .

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by supereal

Be sure that the keyway in the crank pulley isn't damaged, or the key, itself, isn't swedged. If the crank bolt has become loosened at some time, it doesn't take long to do it.

Pulled the bolt and washer, to take a look, the pulley hasn't slipped or rotated.

Thanks.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Ggmac

If the timing light doesn't have an adjustment knob on it I DOUBT ITS BAD .only the adjustable advance lights can go bad . I'm still using the same light you have . I bought it new and used it for many years every day .

I too, bought mine new back in the day form Sears. It has never been dropped. It has spent most of it's time a the drawer. It seems to work as it should, except for the reading of 1 1/2" off on the pulley, yet the car runs great.

I did a simple compression check, with my finger over the compression gauge hose, and the top of the stroke aligns with the roter on plug #1.

I can give it a try on the 1970 Cougar that belongs to my wife.

[Charlie ny]

Pulley and/or front cover changed sometime in the motors past .....
Charlie ny

[Merc Cruzer]

Let me just throw this out for discussion. The pulley was changed, from a two belt to a three belt, when I added an original power steering unit to the car. The unit came off a 53' Ford. I know this because the bracket that mounts on the drivers side frame is different for a Ford to a Mercury, and the unit came with a Ford bracket. Would the pulley be different from a Ford to a Mercury, since the cranks and stroke are different, would that have changed the timing mark on the pulley?

The power steering pulley for a 53' Mercury is part number EAC 6312-A. I don't have Ford book to check. I am not sure what number is on the pulley on the car.

[Mart]

You could use the cable tie method to see if the TDC marks align with actual TDC on the motor.

I did a video on it.

https://youtu.be/dn446jjCVRg

Mart.

[tubman]

Just remember, the "dimple" on the pulley is at 2 degrees BTDC.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Let me just throw this out for discussion. The pulley was changed, from a two belt to a three belt, when I added an original power steering unit to the car. The unit came off a 53' Ford. I know this because the bracket that mounts on the drivers side frame is different for a Ford to a Mercury, and the unit came with a Ford bracket. Would the pulley be different from a Ford to a Mercury, since the cranks and stroke are different, would that have changed the timing mark on the pulley?

The power steering pulley for a 53' Mercury is part number EAC 6312-A. I don't have Ford book to check. I am not sure what number is on the pulley on the car.

Are the Ford and Merc pulleys the same diameter? That would make a difference.

[40cpe]

In my opinion, the speculation will not cease until you establish TDC. It can be done easily using the often mentioned zip tie method. You can troubleshoot from there.

I degreed the pulley on my 8BA. I just looked at it, and 1 1/2" is about 25 degrees. I experimented with various static timing settings with my engine, but not as high as 25 degrees. If the engine starts well, it should run well at that position if no advance is working. I don't see where you have checked the advance to work or the carb to create vacuum. The vacuum can looks new, but we all know how that goes.

[JSeery]

You need TDC as a starting point. Guessing at it or getting it close is not really much help.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

In my opinion, the speculation will not cease until you establish TDC. It can be done easily using the often mentioned zip tie method. You can troubleshoot from there.

I degreed the pulley on my 8BA. I just looked at it, and 1 1/2" is about 25 degrees. I experimented with various static timing settings with my engine, but not as high as 25 degrees. If the engine starts well, it should run well at that position if no advance is working. I don't see where you have checked the advance to work or the carb to create vacuum. The vacuum can looks new, but we all know how that goes.

The advance was tested and works as it should. I have been able to observe the advance with the timing light. My current vacuum is a steady 14, and I am at 8300 ft. The can is new as the old one had a slow leak. The distributor was set, with the the line off the can and blocked back to the carb.

The car runs great with full power, while claiming 3,100 ft in 13 miles, coming from Denver back home to Conifer. Performance is not an issue here, but rather the location of the TDC bump on the pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Are the Ford and Merc pulleys the same diameter? That would make a difference.

That is my question precisely. Is there a difference ((diameter and TDC button (actually 2 degreed befor BTDC) on top)) between the Ford and Mercury pulleys?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

In my opinion, the speculation will not cease until you establish TDC. It can be done easily using the often mentioned zip tie method. You can troubleshoot from there.

I degreed the pulley on my 8BA. I just looked at it, and 1 1/2" is about 25 degrees. I experimented with various static timing settings with my engine, but not as high as 25 degrees. If the engine starts well, it should run well at that position if no advance is working. I don't see where you have checked the advance to work or the carb to create vacuum. The vacuum can looks new, but we all know how that goes.

You could use the cable tie method to see if the TDC marks align with actual TDC on the motor.

I did a video on it.

https://youtu.be/dn446jjCVRg

Mart.


Mart,

I will do the "zip tie method" the first thing tomorrow. The nice thing is I already have a pointer.

[flatjack9]

The diameter of the pulley makes no difference.

[flatheadmurre]

And the timing pointer if you have a wide belt front cover with a small belt pulley would be sitting away from the pulley.
That would tell you if you have a mismatch there.
And you shouldn´t have a 25 degree difference from that.

[51 MERC-CT]

Just for reference this is the dot to keyway location on '50-'51 crank pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

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[QUOTE=flatheadmurre;1843321]And the timing pointer if you have a wide belt front cover with a small belt pulley would be sitting away from the pulley.
That would tell you if you have a mismatch there.
And you shouldn´t have a 25 degree difference from that.[/QUOT

The pointer in my car:

[flatheadmurre]

This is the correct pointer setup for your car.
You can see a circle in the casting where the pointer is mounted when used with a widebelt pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

This is the correct pointer setup for your car.
You can see a circle in the casting where the pointer is mounted when used with a widebelt pulley.

Then it appears mine is correct, as to the pointer location. Definitely not as easy to get photos when mounted on the completed engine, in the car.

Thank you

[flatheadmurre]

Do the ziptie test....that will narrow down the investigation !

[V8 Bob]

A couple of questions. What is the dwell you set the points to (should be 27 degrees) and, are you sure you have the timing light connected to the #1 plug wire?
No insult intended, just grabbing at straws!

[Merc Cruzer]

Ok folks, I have to admit putting a foreign object into the cylinder, of a perfectly good engine would have not been my first choice. But here it is. Bottom line, the new TDC, is still 1 1/2" off the original pulley marker.

The arrow picture #1 arrow = new TDC, # 2 arrow = is the original TDC pulley button.

The zip tie method test "confirmed that the TDC was in fact with the timing mark on the pulley aligned with the timing pin on the front of the timing cover."

I apologize for the confusion.

[JSeery]

Well, now you know where TDC is and have a point to set the timing from.

[Merc Cruzer]

After checking with an old time flathead racer in the local club, he feels the pulley has slipped. It is on the key by only 1/4". The only way to confirm this would be to pull the front timing cover and do a visual inspection. Pulling the bolt and washer and looking from the front will not give you the visual required.

[40cpe]

Just to be sure: you did bring the piston up against the stop, mark the pulley, reverse the rotation back to the stop, mark the pulley, and divide the two marks for TDC?

[JSeery]

I have run across dampers that have slipped relative to the keyway. But that is due to a rubber section between the outer and inter parts of the damper. Not sure I see how that could happen on a flathead solid metal pulley.

At this point not sure it matters if you have a true TDC mark to work with, 59a and earlier engines do not have a timing indicator on the pulley and get along fine for timing once TDC is found and marked.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I have run across dampers that have slipped relative to the keyway. But that is due to a rubber section between the outer and inter parts of the damper. Not sure I see how that could happen on a flathead solid metal pulley.

At this point not sure it matters if you have a true TDC mark to work with, 59a and earlier engines do not have a timing indicator on the pulley and get along fine for timing once TDC is found and marked.

Unless a small piece is broken out of the pulley that goes over the key. These pulleys have a tendency to break. If you notice, the part of the pulley that goes over the key is thinner. That may work when you are driving water pumps, fan and generator, but add a power steering pump and the the load may become too much for only 1/4" of the key to power it. I didn't have to pull the timing cover to see this.

[tubman]

Boy, I don't know. If the front pulley was that far from being all the way on, I would expect it would be impossible to keep the fan belts on.

[51 MERC-CT]

Is the advance plate (red arrows) in the distributor up against the stop pins
(green arrows) ?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Is the advance plate (red arrows) in the distributor up against the stop pins
(green arrows) ?

Yes

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Unless a small piece is broken out of the pulley that goes over the key. These pulleys have a tendency to break. If you notice, the part of the pulley that goes over the key is thinner. That may work when you are driving water pumps, fan and generator, but add a power steering pump and the the load may become too much for only 1/4" of the key to power it. I didn't have to pull the timing cover to see this.

Something is screwed up here. There should be a sleeve on the crank that the seal rubs against and this does not extend beyond the front cover. There should be no slot visible either.The key that holds the pulley is a about an inch long and should be fully visible. I have never seen a pulley break in this area.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Something is screwed up here. There should be a sleeve on the crank that the seal rubs against and this does not extend beyond the front cover. There should be no slot visible either.The key that holds the pulley is a about an inch long and should be fully visible. I have never seen a pulley break in this area.

That is not a slot, it is piece broken out of the back of the pulley. There is a guy on e-bay that sells new three belt pulleys. The first photo is his. The second and third photos, are of the original 2 belt pulley, when I bought the car. The piece that is broken on the 3 belt pulley is cracked on the 2 belt pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Just to be sure: you did bring the piston up against the stop, mark the pulley, reverse the rotation back to the stop, mark the pulley, and divide the two marks for TDC?

Yes, per the video.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by supereal

Be sure that the keyway in the crank pulley isn't damaged, or the key, itself, isn't swedged. If the crank bolt has become loosened at some time, it doesn't take long to do it.

My initial inspection didn't provide me with any evidence of slippage. As the investigation proceeded further, I feel you are correct. Unfortunately, the only way to confirm it is to remove the pulley in question. Since it doesn't affect the performance of the car, that will be a project for a later date.

Thank you for your insight.

[Hoop]

Don't know whether or not Ford made a 6 cylinder pulley in that configuration ... or if it would fit on a V8 crank.

But, the arithmetic is a tease.

[Mart]

Merc, just as a sanity check is the discrepancy in the pulley in the right direction to indicate slippage (or some other reason for turning due to load).

Mart.

[Merc Cruzer]

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Originally Posted by Hoop

Don't know whether or not Ford made a 6 cylinder pulley in that configuration ... or if it would fit on a V8 crank.

But, the arithmetic is a tease.

I was wondering if the crank, in a Y block had the same size end, since I know they offed powering steering in 54'. Could this be a pulley from a Y block?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Mart

Merc, just as a sanity check is the discrepancy in the pulley in the right direction to indicate slippage (or some other reason for turning due to load).

Mart.

Mart,

Since the motor turns clockwise (viewed from the front), and assuming the pulley slipped, this could account for the new location of the TDC location on the pulley.

Merc

[Hoop]

Merc, not talking about a Y block ...

Do the ignition math on a Ford 6 cylinder and then V8. Check the initial timing on each. Consider your 28 degree advance (which you just edited out.).

Do you see a coincidence?

Fun, huh? Probably simply slipped ....

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Merc, not talking about a Y block ...

Do the ignition math on a Ford 6 cylinder and then V8. Check the initial timing on each. Consider your 28 degree advance (which you just edited out.).

Do you see a coincidence?

Fun, huh? Probably simply slipped ....

Did they offer power steering on flathead 6 cylinder cars/trucks then? Interesting thought.

I am thinking that I might be able to pull the bolt and washer from the front of the crank again and blindly feel for both the slot on the pulley and the slot on the crank to see if they are lined up or not. Only way to do it is with a mirror.

I do have a cable that attaches to my cell phone that is a camera with a light on the end . Might give that a try.

Slippage, still seams to be the most logical explanation.

[40cpe]

When I blow up the picture in post # 36 I think I see the woodruff key in the slot that is broken out of the pulley. If so, it is not slipped.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Did they offer power steering on flathead 6 cylinder cars/trucks then? Interesting thought.

Power steering was offered on the '53 OHV six cyl. pickup not sure about the passenger cars.
But from what I could see, I believe the 6 cyl. pulley is 2 grooved for the power steering application. (not positive)

[flatheadmurre]

The OHV 6 cyl have a bit different style of pulley.
With some mass closest to timing cover.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

When I blow up the picture in post # 36 I think I see the woodruff key in the slot that is broken out of the pulley. If so, it is not slipped.

I had a chance to take the bolt and washer out of the pulley again and I agree, no slippage. With a mirror and flashlight, I was able to look up the slot in the pulley and see the end of the key.

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Power steering was offered on the '53 OHV six cyl. pickup not sure about the passenger cars.
But from what I could see, I believe the 6 cyl. pulley is 2 grooved for the power steering application. (not positive)

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The OHV 6 cyl have a bit different style of pulley.
With some mass closest to timing cover.

It appears the OHV 6 cyl pulley, is not the answer either.

The mystery remains.

[3blapcam]

How long has this engine been together and running? Is there a chance the timing gears are not lined up correctly, but the timing has been moved enough to compensate to make it run?

3blap.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 3blapcam

How long has this engine been together and running? Is there a chance the timing gears are not lined up correctly, but the timing has been moved enough to compensate to make it run?

3blap.

The original block was cracked, so I found a new block and then rebuilt the engine myself. The engine came out of the car on 1/29/11 and went back in the car on 6/29/11. It currently has 8434 mile on it since the rebuild. I was still working so between chasing the new block, parts and the time in the machine shop, it took a bit longer than normal. I had the machine work done locally, but I did the assembly. I have attached a picture of the timing alignment for your review. Let me know if you see something that is incorrect. They always say it is the picture that you didn't take the you will always need, but in this case I seem to have one. Maybe 51 MERC-CT can blow it up for me. I have never been sure how to do that.

For discussion sake, how would a engine run that had the "timing moved enough to compensate to make it run"? I would be interesting in knowing, to see if my engine is exhibiting any of those symptoms.

I have posted this previously, but for those of you wanting to know it sounds, come take a ride with me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ekRfWS_eE

For those who say, any car runs well when it is warm, or too much music, I can't hear the engine, come take another ride with me, but you will have to put on a coat for this one. By the way I keep the choke turned off and it was 38 degrees that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5biC4qjjTE&t=85s

[3blapcam]

Timing marks look good. Crank pulley looks good.

Yeah, I don't know about the timing being off and running still. I think I managed to do that as a kid (on a OHV engine) but it ran like poop. No way you'd put over 8K miles on it like that.

You know, I've heard (but have zero experience) that those original style cam gears will slip on itself, hence the solid aftermarket aluminum parts. If that did slip, I think it would still run with a twist of the distributor to compensate. I'll have to go back and look to see if the timing mark is way after TDC to run correctly/be in time... is that what's the problem? I'll have to go back and read the original post.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 3blapcam

Timing marks look good. Crank pulley looks good.

Yeah, I don't know about the timing being off and running still. I think I managed to do that as a kid (on a OHV engine) but it ran like poop. No way you'd put over 8K miles on it like that.

You know, I've heard (but have zero experience) that those original style cam gears will slip on itself, hence the solid aftermarket aluminum parts. If that did slip, I think it would still run with a twist of the distributor to compensate. I'll have to go back and look to see if the timing mark is way after TDC to run correctly/be in time... is that what's the problem? I'll have to go back and read the original post.

I know the only way to check to see if is has slipped or if there is a broken tooth, is to remove the timing cover.

Really, I have no problem or issues with the running/performance of the engine, I was just wondering why when I use a timing light (rather than tuning it with a vacuum gauge, the way I was taught) it reads way off. (an 1 1/2" before the timing button on the pulley) I thought maybe someone had run into this previously and could provide insight. Maybe I should have just left the timing light in the drawer where it has been for many, many years, and will remain.

Thank you all for your reply's and suggestions, it is always a pleasure to learn from you.

[Hoop]

Merc, using whatever reference point for a start ... like the slot ... measure and see if the "timing button" is in the same place on both the installed pulley and your old pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Merc, using whatever reference point for a start ... like the slot ... measure and see if the "timing button" is in the same place on both the installed pulley and your old pulley.

From what I can tell, by putting the old pulley over the front of the new one, (shaft towards the engine) they appear to be the same.

[Merc Cruzer]

First, just a thank you all for your assistance.

I did get a chance to do a test run on Sunday. The car starts allot easier and quicker (one revolution). The engine seems noticeably quieter. Not sure if there is more power, if so it is not noticeable, but it does seem smother. Overall, I like that fact that I can now use the original timing mark in conjunction with my timing light, the original goal for this post.

Thanks again,

End post.

[tubman]

Congratulations! I know the feeling. I chased a problem like this on a '68 Corvette for almost a year. It turned out to be the plug wires off one position in the cap plus a slipped harmonic balance. That was FUN.

[solidaxle]

Did I miss something? What did you find that caused the problem?

[19Fordy]

Yes, what was the problem?

[JSeery]

As I remember, the distributor miss-aligned and plug wiring. Believe there were multiple threads going on the same topic.

[Merc Cruzer]

I think the answers, are in this post:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...=275923&page=3

[solidaxle]

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I read all the posts three times thinking it was me missing something. HaHa
Glad you found it.