Fine Point vs. Touring Class

[31Tudor]

Just wanted to get some thoughts here. I am working on a fine point restoration, I have been accumulating parts for a few years and I am begining to assemble things now. A friend of mine is also working on a restoration and we began our discussion on whether or not he would persue a fine point restoration or restore the car to meet touring class standards. I gave him my thoughts....any other thoughts and opinions of one level of restoration vs the otrher?

[Logan]

fine point cars tend to be cars that get pushed on and off the trailer, never seeing the open road until the owner decides to not have it judged anymore. But of course there are some people who drive their fine point cars. Touring class allows the owners to be able to drive the cars, and have some wear and tear on the cars. It also isnt as strict of judging as the fine point is. It can "look" correct, but not have to be original parts. I think if your friend wants a car to drive and enjoy, you should convince him to do touring class if he wants an original style car. Or just not worry about judging, get out enjoy the car, and make the car fit around what he wants out of it.

[Mike V. Florida]

The overall philosophy of Touring Class Judging is that the “best” vehicle is the most original and correct vehicle in the best condition. All vehicles meeting the entry criteria will be judged, but any modifications will result in a less than perfect score and to give national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner.

So essentially fine point is "as Ford wanted it to roll off the assembly line" Touring class is the same car "after it has been driven around for a few years".

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Logan

fine point cars tend to be cars that get pushed on and off the trailer, never seeing the open road until the owner decides to not have it judged anymore. But of course there are some people who drive their fine point cars. Touring class allows the owners to be able to drive the cars, and have some wear and tear on the cars. It also isnt as strict of judging as the fine point is. It can "look" correct, but not have to be original parts. I think if your friend wants a car to drive and enjoy, you should convince him to do touring class if he wants an original style car. Or just not worry about judging, get out enjoy the car, and make the car fit around what he wants out of it.

I DRIVE & enjoy Both of my MASTER RESTORATION AWARDED cars... P.S. that includes driving it on & off the closed trailer !!... GO SHOW !!..

[Arlen]

I love touring class. You can take your car to a national meet, win an award your proud of, and still drive it on the grand tour. I think before I spent the money needed to do a fine point car, I would rather just buy a bigger car than a ford.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Interesting perspectives above!


My perspective based on restoring several vehicles that have competed in both classes of competition is their really isn't any difference in the cars. In other words, the same vehicle should be able to compete in either class -and if adjudicated correctly, the judges should find the same exact deficiencies in either class. Afterall, both classes of cars share the same Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards book. Therefore the difference IMO is the scoring. Any vehicle that competes in Touring Class judging can compete in the Fine-Point class of judging. Visa-versa applies.

Maybe in this case, folks need to look at the big picture of "why" adjudication is done in the first place, --and more specifically 'why' they are doing it to their own car. In other words, would your friend still restore his Model-A to same exact level of quality/authenticity if either judging class was eliminated, -or is it more about the points?


One observation in general is almost every participant in Fine-Point judging finds themselves taking the Judge's evaluation and using it to do things to their car to make it even more authentic before they bring it back for re-evaluation. It seems most participants in T/C have the attitude they just wanted to see how it would score but rarely are interested in correcting the deficiencies. Afterall, it's just a "Driver".

[Jim Mason]

so long as the 13 points are met a car can be in fine point judging. Just don't expect high points. A 'touring class' built car will probably get a blue ribbon, and score 350 points plus or minus and place 2nd, or 3rd. Prior to touring class there was a very large number of cars in fine point with scores from 350 up. Now fine point cars are much fewer in number and scores are 390 plus or minus and up. Touring class has a larger number of cars and points are higher by those standards. So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. If you go for fine point, after judging you can take the fan belt, original fan, original expensive friable parts off and drive the car into the ground. (my plan). I figure I restored it once, I can restore it again. (now if I could only get closer than 4 hours away from my car/parts/library/shop I could actually work on the car).....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes Jim, very true response. I guess since you said " So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. ", then I guess it really is about the points.

[Jim Mason]

yeah it depends on your goal. if you are points minded, then touring class is 'easier' (not easy just easier) to get high points than fine point. My goal is the best I can do, judged by the toughest standard, then drive it into the ground. Based on my ablilites, I think I should be able to score in the low 400's. If I don't thats good too, if I score better then it's a bonus. For me, points are secondary, the research, work, workmanship is what's important. If the world continues to turn the way it has, I may restore the car and not put my fine point stuff on it and never have it judged. If things don't turn in a different direction soon, I may sell it all off. We'll see....

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Fred

I DRIVE & enjoy Both of my MASTER RESTORATION AWARDED cars... P.S. that includes driving it on & off the closed trailer !!... GO SHOW !!..

So you pretty much just re-justified what I said. If you were judging at the meet, you wouldn't drive it to the meet... It would be on/in the trailer. Where as the touring class could be driven to the meet and judged. Yes the touring class needs to be clean both top side and bottom, but not as much so as fine point would.

[frank55a]

The history behind MARC's Touring Class Judging.

Through the 60s and 70s a recurring issue of the period was how to provide recognition to those Model "As" and owners who restored, maintained, and drove their Model A but never have, and may be never will enter their vehicle in judging. In order to resolve this issue, in 1980 Bob Murphy, President, announced the formation of a committee to develop a program for a National Driving Award based on the miles driven in a Model "A".

With creation of the Driving Awards program one issue was resolved however another was raised. Basically, while the Driving Awards program recognized the miles driven it did not recognize those Model As that were authentic appearing and well maintained. A good share of the Model A's that were registered for the national meets for various reasons generally would not qualify for Fine Point judging but none the less for the most part were authentic appearing and well maintained, however there was no program to provide national recognition to these Model A's. Therefore, in October 1994 the MARC Board approved Touring Class Judging.

From the beginning Touring Class Judging was intended to be like no other form of car judging. The intent of the process is to provide national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner. The key words here are authentic appearing. There are many good quality repro parts that to most people appear to be authentic but as we all know are not. Within Touring Class Judging it is expected that there will be a mix of these good quality repro parts along with original parts that that may have been restored by the owner or a professional restorer, whereas within Fine Point judging it is expected that original parts will be used.

The Touring Class Judging process is intended to be fair, equitable, and enjoyable for the participants while maintaining a standard that will collectively raise the quality of the membership's Model As.

Since these vehicles were intended to be driven, a heavy focus is placed on the operation and function of certain components. Specifically, no points are given for these items but a failure of any item to properly operate would result in a large point deduction from the overall score. Further, all Touring Class vehicles must complete the full length of the Grand (mandatory) Tour.

Within Touring Class Judging all items to be judged are clearly identified in the Touring Class Judging Standards with the point level provided. The judging sheets/standards are written in such a manner that most items to be judged are in the form of an objective question, i.e., they can simply be answered with a YES or NO. Specifically, if YES they receive the specified points, if NO they receive "0" points for the item.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

So Frank, why was the 500 point score sheet implemented into Touring Class? Why not cap it off at 400 points, and instead of MARC of Excellence, offer a MARC of Recognition or something instead??

[Gary Karr]

I would encourage your frient to go for fine point with his restoration. He should restore the car to the best of his abilities and resources and go for it in fine point. It is a wonderful experience plus he will be part of the judging process which is an education in itself. He can always enter the car into touring class down the road after entering the car into fine point. Brent and Jim have said it well. If it is all about the points total, then that's one thing. If it is about striving to make his restoration the very best that he can for himself, that's something else. I have gone down both roads and for me, fine point is most rewarding.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

I would encourage your frient to go for fine point with his restoration. He should restore the car to the best of his abilities and resources and go for it in fine point. It is a wonderful experience plus he will be part of the judging process which is an education in itself. He can always enter the car into touring class down the road after entering the car into fine point. Brent and Jim have said it well. If it is all about the points total, then that's one thing. If it is about striving to make his restoration the very best that he can for himself, that's something else. I have gone down both roads and for me, fine point is most rewarding.

I agree 100 %. Aim high!

[peters180a/170b]

It take's that someone with enough BALLS and GUTS to restore a Fine point car. I still drive my 180A off / on a enclosed trailer . I still show my car at National meets and some locate meets [ not being judged at locale meets] to show what a CORRECT RESTORED Model "A" looks like. I also takes short trips around the neighborhood .Just 2 weeks ago i received my 8th. a.a.c.a. preservation award .I do this because that's whats left to do with Fine Point restored cars. That is part of all National meets.[ Showing Show Cars] .I am working on a unrestored solid 1935 Chevy 3 window coupe. [ That will stay unrestored and a good driver] I have both worlds.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

My advice to everyone I speak to in this hobby is to always do a restoration to the best of your ability. Build a Model A to compete for a MARC of Excellence in Fine point. This should be within your budget if you are restoring the car. It may cost a little more to go for a Henry so I always shoot for the MARC Of Excellence. It is not that much more money to shoot for the MARC. It will always improve the value of the car when finished. If you feel you can go for the Henry I will never discourage anyone from doing that of course.
I then tell people to show the car for one year in fine point and then do the local shows or maybe an AACA show to have great time showing the car. After one year start to drive the car for another wonderful "driving " experience. After driving it for a year then enter "Touring Class" and enjoy that aspect of our great hobby.......You will never be sorry if you follow this path and you will have enjoyed all aspects of our hobby. Always do the best you can in a restoration and that is the challenge to all of us. I am always dissappointed when I hear someone say "I am just building a driver"......Raise your sights.....Do the best you can and shoot for the MARC....You will never regret it.
Then enjoy driving a fine Model A
Ken

[Roadster62]

As an outsider looking in are most "Fine Point" cars ones that were above adverage with most of the special bits there before the lifelong restorastion began? How many years do most people spend on these rebuilds? I know the cost is off the charts, but if that is what you want go for it. Bob

[Jim Mason]

the car that I've been wanting to 'do' for years has 76,000 on it. To many to perserve, but deserving of more than a half fast restore. Nearly complete though completely worn out torn interior. All original paint in the interior and on the floor boards. Some rust under the rear fenders and surface rust on the scratches. Mid west surface rust under side. I've been collecting parts for years. I have NOS rears and right front fender, steering column, bell housing, transmission parts, 80% of the rear end parts, brakes, tire valve stems, electrical, bearings, you get the idea. Most of the 'trinkety' parts were not there but have been collected over far more years than i'd care to admit to. How long? Life keeps getting in the way. I've started on it at least 5 times but never really got started. Marriages, divorces, sold everything including tools (not car), kids, moving, no shop, built shop, rebought tools, re bought parts, lost job, found job, more moving,no shop, lost job (that brings me up to date)... so...so far, it's taken a life time and still not done....

[rogerkb1936]

i have a 31 pu and a 31 roadster. these cars were built from stuff that was so bad it can't be described, but they look good, drive safely, and i pound hell out of them. if i tried to enter them in any judging, obumma would order a drone strike on them. so, should i just burn them cause they are "drivers)? judging is for self absorbed egoists.

[jerry of whidbey]

I showed in 2010 at Vancouver, BC, in Touring class. First time my truck was judged. Boy! Did I learn something! I scored in the upper 300 for my first time. I was thrilled. When I got the score sheets back, I couldn't believe the things wrong with my truck. So every year I improved and am in Fine Point -- learning something, and that's the good part.