The Ford Barn

Bob C · 10-29-2014, 02:52 PM

Sounds like you are welding the center of the nut, you want
to weld around the outside of the nut. Vince has pictures
on his site, see the link. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm

Bob

Tom Wesenberg · 10-29-2014, 04:33 PM

Also be sure to use a large nut, like a 5/8" inside diameter. I do like Ray, except I haven't used water nor an impact wrench. I like to feel what's happening by using a box wrench. The nuts I use usually take a 3/4" wrench.

Synchro909 · 10-29-2014, 04:44 PM

I back using the head as a template. Make up a few sleeves with OD the same as the stud hole in the head and ID gradually increasing for the drill size you want to use. Put the other studs back in and bolt the head down. Now use your sleeves to guide the drill down the centre of the broken stud. You might have to take the head off a few times to check your progress, especially when you are getting close but after 85 years, a few more minutes doesn't matter.
As a last resort, Helicoils work well so don't despair if it doesn't seem to be going well.

racer32 · 10-29-2014, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Also be sure to use a large nut, like a 5/8" inside diameter. I do like Ray, except I haven't used water nor an impact wrench. I like to feel what's happening by using a box wrench. The nuts I use usually take a 3/4" wrench.

Sounds like I may need smaller washers and bigger nuts. The washers I was using were only a little smaller than the studs, and the nuts weren't big enough to do anything other than shoot the wire right down the center.

1wonton · 10-29-2014, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Purdy,
NOT recommending this, But I've seen my friend, Ron, BLOW a 1/2" broken stud from a block, without even drilling, with a light duty cutting torch & the threads were left intact, with only a few tiny dingle berries left, that were removed easily with a pick! Cleaned the threads with a bottoming tap, & PERFECT!!
AGAIN, I DON'T GENERALLY RECOMMEND THIS FOR THE NOVICE OR THE FAINT OF HEART!! Ron's had years of experience doin' this!-----Bill W.

Yes, I've done this myself. Even though steel has a higher melting point than iron the cast iron will not melt due to the high carbon (graphite) content. The graphite wont burn and in order to cut CI you have to somehow "wash" it out as the iron is heated. If you're fairly careful you can blow the melted steel out of the bore, then clean it up with a tap. Find an old block and try it, not that difficlut.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-29-2014, 07:01 PM

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I usually use a large flat washer that has an ID the same at the stud OD, and then weld it let it cool a bit, then lay the large nut on top of the washer and fill up the center of the nut with weld. After it cools for a few minutes I try to turn the nut and it usually comes easily. A couple times I had to reweld the nut and washer to get the broken stud out.

Purdy Swoft · 10-29-2014, 07:15 PM

I've used the torch to melt and blow out the steel threads after drilling as far as possible without getting in to the cast iron threads in the block . I've used this method since the mid ninties and never a problem. I always chase the threads afterward to clean them up, then blow out the holes wiith compressed air. A guy from Burkes mechanical showed me this method and I've never looked back . Sometimes all of the studs can be removed without breaking a single one if you are real lucky. An engine that still has the studs that came from the factory will usually have at least two to break off in the block. In most cases the studs will break at the rear of the engine and cause the engine to have to be removed . Some are just too quick to remove a head that really doesn't even need to be removed in the first place. I've often seen where others would figure that the head gasket was blown because water would spray out around the radiator cap when accellerating or climbing a hill, this is usually caused by an over pumping water pump and a half stopped up radiator. Usually they dispair when the studs start snapping and wish that they had left well enough alone. The washer and nut method never worked for me. If you've got to try it three or four times and it still doesn't work, I figure why waste the time. Most probably end up trying to find a shop that is willing to remove the broken studs .

Bob C · 10-29-2014, 07:23 PM

Use a fender washer, they have a large OD and a small hole.

Bob

tbirdtbird · 10-29-2014, 08:26 PM

fender washer X 2

flux core wire is a low grade product. Can you set your machine up for a bottle? All it takes is a bottle of argon-CO2 and reverse the polarity of the leads inside the case. In fact look at the diagram inside the case and be sure it is set up right for even flux core! I have seen many ppl have the leads reversed out.

The only time I couldn't get the weld-washer-nut trick to work (actually I hardly ever use the washer and just weld inside the nut) was when the stud was a grade 8. You need low hydrogen rod/wire to weld grade 8 else it will snap right off. I do not have any 8000 series MIG wire (low hydrogen) , only 7000 series. Maybe someday I will get a small spool for these cases.

Whenever I mention this there is a hot shot who jumps on here and tells me he can weld anything with 6013 stick. Which is so bogus as to not be funny. I have been welding literally since I was 5. If this guy shows up, many he would be willing to drive over to your place and weld 'er up

James Rogers · 10-29-2014, 08:34 PM

Fender washers won't work, the hole is too small and generally, too thin. I have removed many by lots of methods. The method I like best is to weld a 1/2" flat washer to the broken stud after I heat the area surrounding the stud. I have found the block will wick the heat out of the weld and it won't hold. Heating the block at the stud cures this. After the washer is welded, I weld a head nut to it on three sides and flood the area with my favorite penetrant. An impact will usually bring the stud right out. Last week I was brought an engine from a modern with a broken bolt in a recessed hole. The biggest problem with this engine other than it being broken down in the recess and having a broken "easy out" in it was the block was aluminum so, no welding. I tried several different drill bits with no success. This was attributed to the piece of broken easy out. As a last ditch effort, I decided to see what a 3/8" carbide end mill would do. Some careful drilling with the end mill and the top of the bolt began to flatten and the easy out began to cut. I cut it till I felt the bolt move and checked it till I saw the easy out was gone. I drilled it with a starter drill and then a smaller bit and used a large easy out to just remove it. Didn't even scuff the threads and the engine is now back in service. You just have to be willing to use anything at hand to try and get the stud to move. Just be careful and I don't recommend using easy outs, they cause more work and trouble than they fix.

Bob C · 10-29-2014, 08:44 PM

McMaster-Carr has fender washer for up to 1" fasteners

Bob

James Rogers · 10-29-2014, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

Fender washers work fine for me. I disc off any plating and weld. Also, it works just fine on broken studs in aluminum blocks, as well as in die cast zinc. Why do you think not? I have done several of each aluminum and zinc for friends restoring corvettes. Broken bolts in zinc headlamp doors, and broken bolts in aluminum blocks.

This stud was broken off 3/4 inch down in the block. The end mill just worked better.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-31-2014, 07:04 AM

Here's a broken bolt I removed from an aluminum jack earlier this summer. This was my fault for trying to remove the bolt without removing the steel roll pin first. I didn't see the roll pin driven into the side of the aluminum, and I snapped off the head while trying to remove the bolt. After welding the washer and nut on I forced it out but gummed up the threads when I forced it past the roll pin. It was lony after the broken bolt was removed that I finally spotted the small hole in the aluminum with the roll pin driven in.

I hold the wire feed in the center of the washer and nut and let the liquid steel flow out to fill the hole. This way it puts the most heat on the broken bolt.

racer32 · 10-31-2014, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I hold the wire feed in the center of the washer and nut and let the liquid steel flow out to fill the hole. This way it puts the most heat on the broken bolt.

Tom, do you tack the washer to the bolt, or just set both on there and let 'er rip?

Tom Wesenberg · 10-31-2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer32

Tom, do you tack the washer to the bolt, or just set both on there and let 'er rip?

Lay the washer on and weld it to the stud, then lay the nut over the welded washer and weld it.

rocket1 · 10-31-2014, 03:52 PM

At this point I would take the bare block to the machine shop,they will probably charge at least $15.00- $25.00 for each stud,and have them chase all the stud holes.

racer32 · 10-31-2014, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket1

At this point I would take the bare block to the machine shop,they will probably charge at least $15.00- $25.00 for each stud,and have them chase all the stud holes.

Engine is still in the car. If it comes out, it may not go back in. Especially if the flathead in the 41 Ford I bought a few days ago turns out crack-free.

racer32 · 10-31-2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Lay the washer on and weld it to the stud, then lay the nut over the welded washer and weld it.

Thanks. That's what I tried before, but never got it to stick well. Will try cleaning more and get good, bright metal at the studs. I think contamination of weld has been causing my issue. May also try different washers with larger OD.

tbirdtbird · 10-31-2014, 07:17 PM

please remember that a flux core weld is a very weak weld. Please consider upgrading to a gas-shielded system. All it takes is one bottle of argon-CO2 available at any welding supply such as AirGas. Google welding supply for your local area there will be several of them.

Also, you can not usually get flux core wire less than .030. This size is too big for what you want to do. You need to use .023 or .025 diam. wire with a bottle. With the right equipment this is an easy job.

If you can weld with flux core you can certainly MIG weld with a bottle. I promise you that you will never go back. Flux core is a technology left over from ancient Egypt in the tombs of the pyramids when they tried to weld wood together. At best it barely gets you by to weld fence posts.

You can also practice. Take a handful of 1/2" nuts, and some washers, and practice on a piece of 1/8 inch sheet metal or scrap laying around until you get the knack of welding in the hole of a washer, and around the outside of the nut

Tom Wesenberg · 10-31-2014, 07:55 PM

Tbird is exactly right, and I'll bet that's the reason it hasn't worked for you.

My friend has a flux core welder and I tried it about 10 years ago. There's no way I would own one, and I paid the extra to buy a Lincoln SP-135, which works well on steel up to 1/8". If I preheat the steel I can even go up to 1/4". At the local high school I used their larger 220 volt Hobart wire welders and sure liked them, but I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

10-29-2014, 02:52 PM	#21
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: Broken head studs Sounds like you are welding the center of the nut, you want to weld around the outside of the nut. Vince has pictures on his site, see the link. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm Bob

10-29-2014, 04:33 PM	#22
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Broken head studs Also be sure to use a large nut, like a 5/8" inside diameter. I do like Ray, except I haven't used water nor an impact wrench. I like to feel what's happening by using a box wrench. The nuts I use usually take a 3/4" wrench.

10-29-2014, 04:44 PM	#23
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Broken head studs I back using the head as a template. Make up a few sleeves with OD the same as the stud hole in the head and ID gradually increasing for the drill size you want to use. Put the other studs back in and bolt the head down. Now use your sleeves to guide the drill down the centre of the broken stud. You might have to take the head off a few times to check your progress, especially when you are getting close but after 85 years, a few more minutes doesn't matter. As a last resort, Helicoils work well so don't despair if it doesn't seem to be going well.

10-29-2014, 07:01 PM	#26
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Broken head studs Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I usually use a large flat washer that has an ID the same at the stud OD, and then weld it let it cool a bit, then lay the large nut on top of the washer and fill up the center of the nut with weld. After it cools for a few minutes I try to turn the nut and it usually comes easily. A couple times I had to reweld the nut and washer to get the broken stud out.

10-29-2014, 07:15 PM	#27
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Broken head studs I've used the torch to melt and blow out the steel threads after drilling as far as possible without getting in to the cast iron threads in the block . I've used this method since the mid ninties and never a problem. I always chase the threads afterward to clean them up, then blow out the holes wiith compressed air. A guy from Burkes mechanical showed me this method and I've never looked back . Sometimes all of the studs can be removed without breaking a single one if you are real lucky. An engine that still has the studs that came from the factory will usually have at least two to break off in the block. In most cases the studs will break at the rear of the engine and cause the engine to have to be removed . Some are just too quick to remove a head that really doesn't even need to be removed in the first place. I've often seen where others would figure that the head gasket was blown because water would spray out around the radiator cap when accellerating or climbing a hill, this is usually caused by an over pumping water pump and a half stopped up radiator. Usually they dispair when the studs start snapping and wish that they had left well enough alone. The washer and nut method never worked for me. If you've got to try it three or four times and it still doesn't work, I figure why waste the time. Most probably end up trying to find a shop that is willing to remove the broken studs .

10-29-2014, 07:23 PM	#28
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: Broken head studs Use a fender washer, they have a large OD and a small hole. Bob

10-29-2014, 08:26 PM	#29
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Broken head studs fender washer X 2 flux core wire is a low grade product. Can you set your machine up for a bottle? All it takes is a bottle of argon-CO2 and reverse the polarity of the leads inside the case. In fact look at the diagram inside the case and be sure it is set up right for even flux core! I have seen many ppl have the leads reversed out. The only time I couldn't get the weld-washer-nut trick to work (actually I hardly ever use the washer and just weld inside the nut) was when the stud was a grade 8. You need low hydrogen rod/wire to weld grade 8 else it will snap right off. I do not have any 8000 series MIG wire (low hydrogen) , only 7000 series. Maybe someday I will get a small spool for these cases. Whenever I mention this there is a hot shot who jumps on here and tells me he can weld anything with 6013 stick. Which is so bogus as to not be funny. I have been welding literally since I was 5. If this guy shows up, many he would be willing to drive over to your place and weld 'er up __________________ '31 180A

10-29-2014, 08:34 PM	#30
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: Broken head studs Fender washers won't work, the hole is too small and generally, too thin. I have removed many by lots of methods. The method I like best is to weld a 1/2" flat washer to the broken stud after I heat the area surrounding the stud. I have found the block will wick the heat out of the weld and it won't hold. Heating the block at the stud cures this. After the washer is welded, I weld a head nut to it on three sides and flood the area with my favorite penetrant. An impact will usually bring the stud right out. Last week I was brought an engine from a modern with a broken bolt in a recessed hole. The biggest problem with this engine other than it being broken down in the recess and having a broken "easy out" in it was the block was aluminum so, no welding. I tried several different drill bits with no success. This was attributed to the piece of broken easy out. As a last ditch effort, I decided to see what a 3/8" carbide end mill would do. Some careful drilling with the end mill and the top of the bolt began to flatten and the easy out began to cut. I cut it till I felt the bolt move and checked it till I saw the easy out was gone. I drilled it with a starter drill and then a smaller bit and used a large easy out to just remove it. Didn't even scuff the threads and the engine is now back in service. You just have to be willing to use anything at hand to try and get the stud to move. Just be careful and I don't recommend using easy outs, they cause more work and trouble than they fix. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

10-29-2014, 08:44 PM	#31
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: Broken head studs McMaster-Carr has fender washer for up to 1" fasteners Bob

10-31-2014, 03:52 PM	#36
rocket1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Midland Park,N.J. Posts: 1,108	Re: Broken head studs At this point I would take the bare block to the machine shop,they will probably charge at least $15.00- $25.00 for each stud,and have them chase all the stud holes.

10-31-2014, 07:17 PM	#39
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Broken head studs please remember that a flux core weld is a very weak weld. Please consider upgrading to a gas-shielded system. All it takes is one bottle of argon-CO2 available at any welding supply such as AirGas. Google welding supply for your local area there will be several of them. Also, you can not usually get flux core wire less than .030. This size is too big for what you want to do. You need to use .023 or .025 diam. wire with a bottle. With the right equipment this is an easy job. If you can weld with flux core you can certainly MIG weld with a bottle. I promise you that you will never go back. Flux core is a technology left over from ancient Egypt in the tombs of the pyramids when they tried to weld wood together. At best it barely gets you by to weld fence posts. You can also practice. Take a handful of 1/2" nuts, and some washers, and practice on a piece of 1/8 inch sheet metal or scrap laying around until you get the knack of welding in the hole of a washer, and around the outside of the nut __________________ '31 180A

10-31-2014, 07:55 PM	#40
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Broken head studs Tbird is exactly right, and I'll bet that's the reason it hasn't worked for you. My friend has a flux core welder and I tried it about 10 years ago. There's no way I would own one, and I paid the extra to buy a Lincoln SP-135, which works well on steel up to 1/8". If I preheat the steel I can even go up to 1/4". At the local high school I used their larger 220 volt Hobart wire welders and sure liked them, but I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.