what spindles

[jeepguy1948]

I want to buy a pair of early V8 spindles to use install '40 Ford brakes on my Model A. There is a pair for sale on the HAMB that say they are 35-36 spindles. The spindles however are oblong like a Model A spindle. I thought all the V8 spindles are either round back or square back? Help appreciated.

[jeepguy1948]

Correction, the ad says that they are '36

[jeepguy1948]

Also, I know that both round back and square back will work for the juice brakes but is one better than the other? It seems that the aftermarket ones are round back. If anybody cares to look at the ad it is posted by 46convert.

[cas3]

Round back or square back are a bolt on for hydraulic backing plates, but will require a steering hoop for the drag link. 35 36 have a smaller bolt pattern, and no drag ling connection either. 32 34 spindles have the steering arm for drag link connection, but are also the smaller bolt pattern. Many folks get around that problem with a little welding and drilling. I would stay away from the aftermarket stuff, plenty of Fords spindles still out there

[jeepguy1948]

So are there balls that mount in the holes on the steering arms?

[tubman]

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IIRC, '36 spindles are longer than most of the others and can only be used with certain Lincoln drums. Also '36 drums, of course, but they are "wide-5".

[Andy]

The early linkage used ball studs and assembled ends. Regular tie rod ends fit and are usually used.
I am not familiar with A spindles. Never had one in my hand. I think they must be almost identical to 32 spindles. My 32 5W had 32 spindles with 40 brakes. The spacers for the bearings were loose so I made new ones. I could have put some locktite on them.
I would buy the adapter kit and try that first. It is just some sleeves and a ring to center the backing plate. It saves messing with a bolt on arm and they fit the car and king pins.
My king pins had the cups cut off. I don’t think it was necessary.
If you are going to run wire wheels you need the backup support rings.The wires have stepped mounting surfaces an will not fit right on flat drums.

[Charlie Stephens]

I always used the adapter kit and retained the Model A spindles. Most venders have them. Be sure to get a good one from a reputable supplier.

Charlie Stephens

[jeepguy1948]

I know from experience that there is a whole lot more to using the stock A spindles than just using the adapter kit. You have to modify the backing plate significantly to do it and/or butcher things up pretty good.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

I know from experience that there is a whole lot more to using the stock A spindles than just using the adapter kit. You have to modify the backing plate significantly to do it and/or butcher things up pretty good.

I wouldn't call notching the bolt holes in the backing plate "butchery"; probably been done innumerable times since '39.

If you don't care for notching, set backing place on with the centering rings, line up the offset holes as best as you can, bolt them together with a couple quarter inch bolt diagonally, run a drill thru from the spindle side, install and tighten your original bolts, remove the quarter inch bolts, drill out the remaining two holes, and remove the first two bolts and reassemble everything with the original grease catcher.

Be sure to pry off the original rings on the spindle.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by tubman

IIRC, '36 spindles are longer than most of the others and can only be used with certain Lincoln drums. Also '36 drums, of course, but they are "wide-5".

The snouts on '36 spindles are exactly the same as on '37-'48 spindles and only requires the centering ring and hole rework to add Juice brakes.

The snouts on '35 spindles are the same length as A-'34 spindles; but have the register for a grease seal and in addition to the centering ring and hole rework to fit juice brakes. Will need to use the taller axle nut or double washers under the later thin one.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

I know from experience that there is a whole lot more to using the stock A spindles than just using the adapter kit. You have to modify the backing plate significantly to do it and/or butcher things up pretty good.

Hey Don....You're correct in that going that route is not a simple bolt-on.

Below is a picture of Lockheed hydraulic on a Model "A" spindle.




It is kind'a busy up there because of the steering. One thing I don't remember you mentioning is YOUR steering. Are you going to keep the A-bone side steering? Also note in this picture that the TIE ROD must go either OVER or UNDER the wishbones. IF you should ever change to any CROSS-STEERING box, you'll also have a drag link going across (or UNDER) the right side wishbone arm. For this reason, I like 1937-1940 'ROUND-BACK' spindles because on the right-hand spindle arm, BOTH tie rod and drag link holes are tapered up from the bottom, on the SAME plane, whereas with SQUARE-BACK spindles, the right arm has two holes tapered from two different directions, possibly complicating clearancing of the wishbone. CAUTION: SOME 1941 ROUND-BACK spindles have the holes tapered from both directions, which you do NOT want. Also, make sure that the extra hole has not been cut off of whatever right hand spindle that you purchase. Kingpin selection is always determined by year of spindle.

Looking at the two types of spindles BELOW, it can be clearly seen that the middle (drag link) hole in square-back spindle arm is larger (tapered from TOP) than middle round-back hole. Coop


ROUND



SQUARE




TALL & SHORT SPINDLE NUTS that "rich b" spoke of ABOVE

[jeepguy1948]

I will do my best to respond to everybody's comments and questions. Coopman, I don't see that any pictures actually made it to your post. I have an F 1 or 100 steering box using the conventional stock type drag link. On this car I do not plan to change that. I have a stock axle but with a lowering spring that sets the front of the car down a couple inches. By butchery I mean the following... I have seen this done twice, on one, the backing plates have been turned upside down, the wheel cylinders then turned right side up the mounting holes were probably elongated. On the other one (the one that I have laying on my garage floor) notches have been cut into the backing plate to clear the spring perches and the shock balls cut off the perches (now all this is on the back, I'm not certain about the front actually). Maybe on the front all that is required is to get rid of the bracke sockets on top of the king pins? I believe that I will have to add another arm onto the front backing plate/spindle to provide for the drag link. I am convinced that 37 - 40 round back spindles are the way to go (that was actually my original question). I REALLY appreciate all the help but at times it can be totally overwhelming. Hope to see those pictures Coopman!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

I will do my best to respond to everybody's comments and questions. Coopman, I don't see that any pictures actually made it to your post. I REALLY appreciate all the help but at times it can be totally overwhelming. Hope to see those pictures Coopman!

I can understand about being overwhelmed. There are SO MANY ways to do some of this, along with so many choices of parts to use. Plus, a little experience over time helps to know what problems must be anticipated.

Pictures ALL made it through when I click on this thread. Try clicking on the link BELOW, which is just a copy of my post. Let me know if that doesn't work, and I'll PM the pictures to you. Click the link BELOW! Coop


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=12


.

[rich b]

In V8CM's picture it looks like they did away with the A king pin and bearing set-up and used the Torrington needle thrust bearings on the bottom.

While it looks better and is easier to set up; the stock A pin and bearing will still work.

[jeepguy1948]

Got them now Coopman, thank you.

[cas3]

Got what ?

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by cas3

Got what ?

I think the pictures. Read the last sentence in post #13.

[cas3]

Thanks Bob. I thought it was the type of spindle he had decided to use. Need to pay attention gol dangit.

[jeepguy1948]

Again, thank you to everybody for the help. Coopman, I have to conceed that there is a strong possibility that the disc brakes will set the wheels out forward. I do not have any space to give for that, the tires are just barely inside the fender bead as it is. When using the later spindles I know that anoter bolt on arm must be installed for the side steer drag link. Do you then cut the outer eye off on the spindle arm?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

Again, thank you to everybody for the help. Coopman, I have to conceed that there is a strong possibility that the disc brakes will set the wheels out forward. I do not have any space to give for that, the tires are just barely inside the fender bead as it is. When using the later spindles I know that anoter bolt on arm must be installed for the side steer drag link. Do you then cut the outer eye off on the spindle arm?

Don....You can, and it will certainly LOOK better. Leaving it in place won't hurt a thing, though.

This brings up a whole different part of the puzzle, although not a serious matter. When the geometry was engineered into that ARM (or EQUIVALENT) on both Model 'A' as well as '32-'34 Fords, it should be noted that the ANGLE where the drag link meets that steering arm was designed to be 90º when the front wheels point STRAIGHT ahead. If you look at the example BELOW, you will likely see the situation.





This is done because of the angle of the drag link. The location where the drag link is attached to the Pitman arm (when looking down from above) is noticeably farther INBOARD than where the front end of drag link attaches to the spindle STEERING ARM. Thus with the front end of the drag link angled OUTWARD, this STEERING ARM on spindle is angled forward to make that junction 90º at the CENTERED position. OTHERWISE, the car would steer a tighter turning circle to the LEFT, and a WIDER circle when turned to the RIGHT. It wouldn't be that noticeable in MOST driving situations, but the new add-on arm can be constructed to match the original Ford geometry. NOTE the two examples BELOW.

Coop








Your new roundback with bolt-on steering arm should look similar to pic BELOW.





.

[jeepguy1948]

Sorry Coopman, same as last time the links themselves didn't make it thru. Thanks, Don

[rich b]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

I have to conceed that there is a strong possibility that the disc brakes will set the wheels out forward.

Where did disc brakes enter the picture; your original #1 post mentioned '40 brakes?

With disc brakes you definitely need '37 up spindles as that is what the kits are made for.

The only common disc brake kit that doesn't set the wheels out are the ones using the F-150 rotor/GM midsize caliper.

I don't know of any kit that will work with wire wheels without an excessively thick spacer, again spacing the wheel out.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

Sorry Coopman, same as last time the links themselves didn't make it thru. Thanks, Don

WOW! That's OK....Click this link BELOW! Coop


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=21

.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by rich b

Where did disc brakes enter the picture; your original #1 post mentioned '40 brakes?

With disc brakes you definitely need '37 up spindles as that is what the kits are made for.

The only common disc brake kit that doesn't set the wheels out are the ones using the F-150 rotor/GM midsize caliper.

I don't know of any kit that will work with wire wheels without an excessively thick spacer, again spacing the wheel out.

He wanted the '40s NOW, and to have the option of converting to discs at a later date.

Coop

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[rich b]

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Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

He wanted the '40s NOW, and to have the option of converting to discs at a later date.

Coop

.

That's right, should have remembered that plan was raised in another thread he has going; but if mentioned in the first post, it would have changed the direction of this one.

[jeepguy1948]

So here's a question for you brainiacs, on stock '40 Lockheed brakes the front wheel cylinders are bigger than the rears. To me this means the rear brakes will start to engage before the fronts (I do understand that ultimately the front brakes will apply with more force than the rear) We don't want the rears to apply first do we? all this is assuming a dual circuit master with no proportioning valve. I eagerly await your response 'O Wise Ones. Signed, Grasshopper

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by '28 RPU

So here's a question for you brainiacs, on stock '40 Lockheed brakes the front wheel cylinders are bigger than the rears. To me this means the rear brakes will start to engage before the fronts (I do understand that ultimately the front brakes will apply with more force than the rear) We don't want the rears to apply first do we? all this is assuming a dual circuit master with no proportioning valve. I eagerly await your response 'O Wise Ones. Signed, Grasshopper

I've read that it is actually favorable to have the rears apply first, such as when the road surface is slick. I believe that I'd rather have the rears lock-up in that slippery situation than the fronts, for sure. It should keep the "steering" wheels/tires still able to steer. Wish I could remember where I read that info. Coop

.

[cas3]

I think with the different size bores in the wheel cylinder, The rear shoe with the smaller bore will move first on each wheel, not the rear axle set. I also find it hard to believe anyone would notice the difference if it were the other way around.

[jeepguy1948]

well, my thoughts (or what you might say lead me to ask the question) Henry had engineers to figure this stuff out and if nothing else where to change then I would just agree that the way it was designed was best but when you go to a dual circuit I just wondered if that might change anything is all. My wife drives a mustang with 4 wheel discs and I know that the rears apply before the fronts to help limit nose dive (and possibly other reasons as well). the downside is that you can't do burnouts with it :-(

[rich b]

Just because they are different sizes doesn't mean there is a difference in the PSI applied to them; whichever piston moves first will stop with minimum force on the shoe until the other piston moves and meets resistance and then the pressure on each piston climbs equally and exerts force on the shoe in proportion to the piston area.

This plays thru out all eight pistons in the system with application PSI raise pretty much at the same time.

With a dual master some of this happens inside the master as the pressure build in the primary side reaches the point it moves the secondary piston; but again it happens pretty much at the same time.

When other valves like metering and proportion are added to the system is when things work differently.

No need for them in most drum brake systems unless parts selection is messed up.

Most common old time juice brake combos used; 4 Lockheeds or 2 Lockheeds rear and 2 Bendix front work together OK.

Another thing to note; 1/4" lines (like Henry did) should be used with Lockheed brakes. It's about fluid flow.