New car surprises . . .

[Archie Cheda]

After sampling every decade of Ford's from the 40's through the 60's, I decided that I should experience a Model A and bought the 1930 Coupe shown in my avatar. Nothing too far from the norm on this forum, so I have not posted much. I have done a fair amount of "wrenching" on Ford sixes and V-8's and was even a dealer mechanic for a short time in 1969, but this is my first four-cylinder Ford, although I have done numerous VW engines. I have already read literally thousands of posts on this forum and feel like I know what to expect when working on my A. The purpose of this post is to share a few things that I have experienced that could be of use to some members of this forum. I am not recommending anyone do anything that I am doing, but I always like to "close-the-loop" and tie what is going on inside an engine to symptoms. To the highly experienced, there will probably be little new, but for those relatively new to Model A's, I hope to be of use, and in some way repay the forum for all the information it has provided me. If you do not like long posts, please skip out now . . .

After many car purchases, I have gotten to be fairly good at determining the condition of a vehicle from a thorough inspection and test drive. I did not have any previous experience driving a Model A, but my coupe seemed to be in reasonable running order -- it had no "drive-ability" problems. There were no abnormal signs until I was checking for blow-by with the breather cap off and with the hand-throttle holding the engine at a hot, fast idle. Everything sounded normal, and then there was, at camshaft speed, a "click, click, clack, CLACK!", followed by silence. This repeated every minute or so. Based on this abnormal noise and steering & brake issues (all resolved by adjustments), I offered the seller $1,500 less than he was asking and my offer was accepted. The seller is an old friend and, because of the steering & brake issues, he delivered the coupe to my home on a borrowed trailer. I then drove my "new baby" (still not insured) from the street to my back-yard shop.

During the few days between my first sight of the coupe and my actual purchase, the seller pulled the valve cover to see if there was a broken valve spring -- no such luck. Once I had the car in my possession, I decided to pull off the "inspection cover" and check out the camshaft timing gear, to see if the timing cover spring & plunger were not controlling the cam position, and to see if there was any issue with the gear. I was not disappointed. This engine was re-worked in the 1980's -- I now know that it was not rebuilt, at least by my definition. My seller did not have any details, but it was obvious that the engine did not have a large number of miles on it since it was apart. Anyway, you can see the condition of the gear in the pics below -- it was a "macerated" gear and despite having at least one third missing from 24 of the 50 teeth, it had not jumped timing. At this point, I knew I would not be driving the car at all until I installed a new pair of metal timing gears. Because I would have to drop the pan to clean out all the bits of gear teeth, I decided to pull the engine and check it out more carefully.

The first thing I learned, upon dropping the pan, was that the crank had four counter weights welded on and had been balanced. This was unexpected and I decided to check the cam and (non-Ford) head to see what else this engine had in it beyond stock.

Immediately after pulling the head, I looked at the cylinder bores in the block -- they were not the low-mileage surfaces I expected, but had a series of parallel ridges at the same pitch as the ring spacing. The marks you can seen in the first pic below can easily be felt with the fingers and there are places that easily catch a finger-nail -- these are at least a thousandth of an inch deep. The engine is sleeved back to standard bore, so it looks as if I will be boring the sleeves to .020" and buying pistons and rings. I believe that this engine sat for a decade or more and the rings rusted to the cylinder walls. There may be times when this is a minor problem, cured by a short tow, but I think that, more often than spoken of, the result is damaged cylinder walls. The seller told me that the engine did not burn oil. During my testing there was no smoke from the tailpipe and very little blow-by at idle. (I do expect that it probably would have smoked from the tailpipe and had blow-by if it was run up a steep grade under load.)

This happened in a dry climate. I expect that the owner was starting the engine occasionally while it was in storage before not running it for the long period. Better to not start it at all if it is not going to be run until thoroughly warmed up. Also better to put oil in the cylinders if it cannot be started. Also better to use the hand-crank to turn it over on an annual basis to redistribute the oil on the cylinder walls.

I rough-measured the volume of a combustion chamber -- some 250 mL. Not a high compression head. If anything, it was lower compression ratio than stock. The combustion chamber measures about 1-3/8" deep and I would appreciate any feedback about this. It appears to have the same shape as the standard Model A head -- neither heart nor wedge shape. The marking on it are: "6-16-43", "AL", & "Made in USA". (It is a cast iron head very similar to stock in appearance.)

A check of the cam lift showed around .257" lift at the valve -- with .287" being stock, the cam was either worn or a dubious re-grind. I am now considering a 5.5:1 head and a Bill Stipe IB330 cam. The valves all seemed to be seating well, but were original keeper style with two-piece guides. Some valves were snug in their guides, but many were way too loose, even for an 80+ year old car. A rough measurement showed over .030" of wobble with the valve open.

The valves also showed almost no margin from having been ground too many times -- strange in an engine that had such a nice-looking crank. (For those who do not know, the margin is the cylindrical periphery of the valve head. If the valve's angled seating surface is ground too many times the margin disappears and there is a sharp edge. On exhaust valves, these sharp corners can glow red hot and you know that having such a "glow-plug" in the combustion chamber is not beneficial.)

I am saving the "best" for last: on #2 exhaust valve, the hardened seat came out with the valve. The insert actually has a clearance in its bore of over a thousandth of an inch. In a flathead four engine, gravity is helping keep the seat in position. Now I know where the "CLACK" noise came from and am very thankful that I did not put the car on the road to do my troubleshooting. (Again for the less experienced: think of the loose seat insert bouncing around until one time it bounces high enough to leave its bore. The brittle seat would them be hammered by the valve until it broke into pieces which would than proceed to take out the piston and perhaps the cylinder wall.)

I still have to pull the "bottom end" apart, but I am prepared for just about anything after what I have found in the rest of the engine . . .

Archie

[Tom Wesenberg]

Those darn mice get inside the engine and will chew on anything.

Good thing you have the winter to make things right.

[George Miller]

O those wonderful fiber gears. Good luck with the rest of the engine.

[Fred K-OR]

Welcome to the Barn. Looks like you have a nice rig but may have a few things to keep you busy for awhile. Good luck with your efforts and hope you do not find to many other surprises.

[mhsprecher]

Interesting post. It sounds like it was good that you proceeded with caution.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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An EXTREMELY well written account of your evaluation!!
Bill W.

[tbirdtbird]

Those bores do look nasty don't they.
Time well spent to have read thru the many many posts here loaded with info.
Approach to unknown engine very well thought out.
Careful diagnosis to be applauded.

You sound very much like you know what you are doing. Your word choices give this away. A breath of fresh air. Keep at it this systematically and you will have it in fine shape and have a blast with the car. I have 8 others (all diff. makes and marques) spread across many decades and I still like my A the best.
You can't go wrong with Dan's gears, and the Stipe IB330 cam is a fine piece of engineering and will wake the motor up without giving you crazy idle problems.

Good luck, post often, we need knowledgeable ppl here!

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Those darn mice get inside the engine and will chew on anything.

Good thing you have the winter to make things right.

I flew into SLO last January and spent the week in Pismo Beach...they dont really have winter.
Thanks for the write-up! Sounds like you have diagnosed the case and are very lucky to have something left to repair.Good Luck!

[Mitch//pa]

A's have they're own quirks compared to other cars. you did your research and knew exactly what you were aquiring. good for u enjoy the car and welcome to the barn.......

[J Franklin]

Your cylinder bores might get by with a hone and re-ring job.

[Archie Cheda]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Your cylinder bores might get by with a hone and re-ring job.

In the early days of my engine work (1960's) I became very familiar with what one could get away with. I once re-ringed an engine that had a huge ridge, using plain cast iron Muskegon rings. The rings seated and the engine never smoked or used oil, even when driven by a nineteen-year-old.

Now I am at the other end of my life and can afford to do it the way I want to. In this case, a rigid hone (Sunnen CK-10 or equivalent) would do the job, but it would take at least a .005" on the diameter to get rid of the damage, so I expect there would be a bit of piston slap -- I do not know where to go to get my pistons knurled . . .

Archie

P.S.: I feel compelled to state that I AM KIDDING, in order to avoid a lecture regarding those old techniques which have become "unspeakable". I once did use tapered bearing shims to support the inserts in the center main if a '56 Ford 226 six that had spun its center main. That car ran for a long time afterward -- it was a free job for a pair of coed twins who never came back with a "thank-you". (I learned a lot doing that job.)

Also, I am not without transportation -- I took a ten-mile ride on my 10-speed bicycle today while wearing a T-shirt (& jeans). I just moved back to my home town from MD after being away for 15 years, so I really appreciate the climate. (I survived two MN winters, so I know what winter is . . .)

[John S]

Good thing you tore it down, that loose seat would have been a killer. I've seen them come out and it ain't pretty. From my somewhat limited knowledge your head is a stock style replacement sold by an aftermarket jobber back in the day. A Stipe cam with a Snyder's or Brumfield head (if you can find one) along with modern stainless valves and modern guides and you have the makings of a good strong engine. That counter weighted crank should come in handy too.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Did the sleeve job get done correctly, with a lip at the bottom of the cylinder to keep the sleeve from any possibility of slipping down?

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Be sure and check the center cam "block" bearing. If your lucky it's ok, if your sorta lucky all can be bored .010" over and bill will sell you a .010 cam. If your unlucky then one solution is boring the center hole and putting in bushing or early pinto bearings. Good luck!

[Archie Cheda]

Tom & Chuck,

Thanks for the reminders -- I had them on my "list", but appreciate them all the same because I am far from "knowing it all", especially about Model A's . . .

I did not mention it, but I was disappointed to observe the "naked" ends of the four sleeves as soon as I peered past the counterweights on the crank. This was a first sign that the quality of the engine build was uneven. I once worked in a machine shop and observed the "block man's" technique when sleeving a block. When the sleeve had a lip at the top, he used the boring bar to put a counter bore at top of the cylinder and bored the final bore out the bottom. If the sleeve had no lip (the common case) he just stopped short of boring through and left the original bore at the bottom. Once the sleeve was in place, he used the boring bar to trim it flush with the deck surface. This was all so easy, that there is no excuse for not doing it. Once I have pulled my crank, I will double-check to see of there is a small lip at the bottom, but from visual inspection, I do not expect to find this. I researched sleeves on all the Fordbarn forums, learning most from the V8 guys. The technique I liked most though, was from James Rogers on this forum -- it involved pinning the sleeve with a screw from inside the valve chamber. (I do need to remember to do it, so Tom's reminder is very welcome.)

This is not my first automotive engine without cam bearing inserts. The 1950's VW's ran their cams straight in the magnesium crankcase. My main retirement hobby is rebuilding machine tools and it is well-know lore that the WWII-era South Bend lathes stopped using bronze inserts in their headstocks and ran the hardened spindle directly in a cast iron bore. I had one of these apart and the bore and spindle surfaces looked brand new. In all cases, the key is clean oil: so long as the oil is clean, a properly designed hydrodynamic bearing uses the oil to keep the bearing elements from contact. Startup is a minor problem, but clean oil is the main issue. If the oil carries an abrasive, there is going to be wear, especially if sludge limits delivery of oil. Thanks to reading posts in this forum, I planned on doing a lot of measurements of the cam bearing bores -- if necessary, I will order a cam with oversized bearings and line-bore the block to suit. Again, thanks for the reminder Chuck, as this would be an easy thing to forget in all the excitement.

I must confess that I feel a bit like Brer Rabbit telling Brer Fox not to put him in the briar patch . . . I bought this car to be a NON-project. I did not need another project as I have some 9,000# of lathe and mill in pieces in my 800 sq.ft. shop. The new cam and head were things that were possible at some future date. Now I tell the wife: "While I have the engine out, I really have no choice . . ." Her (well-trained) response is: "At least then you will know what you have." Life is good . . .

Archie

[Bob Bidonde]

Archie,
Excellent forensic analysis of your engine. It's apparent that your engine is tired and in need of a complete rebuilding. There are several good modernizations being done by the pro rebuilders including:
a) Modern straight shaft valves, one-piece press-fit guides and press-fit valve seats;
b) Modern pistons and rings from small block Chevy & Ford V8s;
c) Modern insert type main and connecting rod bearings;
d) Pressurization of the oil to the main bearings;
e) Press-fit camshaft bearings;
f) Lightened flywheel and V8 clutch;
g) Aluminum timing gear;
h) Conversion to 12-volt electrical system & ignition primary;
i) Pertonrix 40611 hi-voltage ignition coil;
j) 5.5:1 or 6:1 compression cylinder head;
k) 160 or 180 degree stainless steel thermostats;
l) Pressurized cooling system;
m) Water pump with press-fit front bearing & double sealed rear bushing;
n) Modern connecting rod cap nuts without cotter pins;
o) Oil filter installation. There are several to choose from;
p) Modern rear main bearing oil seal, but this requires machining the crankshaft;
q) Modern cooling fans. DO NOT USE AN Original!


Be sure to solder and or braze the oil drain plug thread insert into the oil pan so it does not spin or weep oil.

Make sure the oil return pipe in the rear main bearing is not screwed in so deep it impedes the flow of oil.

[DGNY]

Thanks for your sharing this adventure. Many of us will learn from its future installments.

Regards,


Dyson

[Brentwood Bob]

Thanks for posting and am learning alot from this thread. Hope to cross your path one day soon. Bob

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Archie Cheda

...I am saving the "best" for last: on #2 exhaust valve, the hardened seat came out with the valve. The insert actually has a clearance in its bore of over a thousandth of an inch. In a flathead four engine, gravity is helping keep the seat in position. Now I know where the "CLACK" noise came from and am very thankful that I did not put the car on the road to do my troubleshooting. (Again for the less experienced: think of the loose seat insert bouncing around until one time it bounces high enough to leave its bore. The brittle seat would them be hammered by the valve until it broke into pieces which would than proceed to take out the piston and perhaps the cylinder wall.) . . . Archie

I had this happen to me this past summer -- 600 miles from home while on tour with our club. Only mine was both exhaust valve seats on #3&4. When I took the head off, the only thing left of the 2 valve seats was on half of the one on #3, wedged sideways under the valve, + little bits and pieces everywhere, some embedded in the piston top. The cylinder walls look OK, still waiting further analysis. Engine will be completely disassembled right after Christmas.

[Archie Cheda]

Thanks to all for the continuing comments & suggestions.

Anyone passing through San Luis Obispo is welcome to drop me an email (via the forum) and stop for a visit.

Bob B.,

I am out of town visiting a cousin right now, but will address your structured points when I get some time. Most of them match my "list", but I may need some clarification on a few items. This engine is still coming apart and, because I will be doing as much of the machining as I can myself, it will be even longer coming together. I do promise a lot of pics of whatever seems to be interesting or educational.

Archie