Questions about Restoring the Brakes

[Ian Curtis]

Hi All,

I've recently decided I really ought to go through the entire braking system and "do it right" so I can quit worrying about it. The brakes have always worked okay (but could only lock up the rear wheels when dead cold), and I've had a reasonable number of panic stops over the past year that have required the parking brakes. (bad form, I know!)

1) My parking brake no longer holds at the last "click". If I pull it beyond that it still works, but is obviously not very useful as a parking brake. Do I just need to replace the lining, or have I mucked it up worse than that?

2) My brakes fade something wicked. With a "stock" braking system, should I still be able to lock up the rears with an "in town traffic" level of heat in the drums? I assume the right thing to do is get a set of cast iron drums?

3) All of the instructions for adjusting the rear brakes say simply to "take out all the play" on the rear actuating lever. What does that mean? Should you start feeling additional force on the lever when you've taken out all the play? Is there an approximate angle of the lever arm that is normal? Like vertical, or 10 deg aft of vertical or ???

4) The instructions do say the correct position of the front brake is 15 deg forward of vertical. When I do that, no matter how far in I screw the brake adjusting wedge I can never get the front brakes to hold. I assume this means something inside the brake is not right?

5) Sooo, what is the best way to go about buying stuff for this project? Should I just pull all the wheels and see what is worn? Buying the full mechanical brake kits from any of the parts suppliers seems wicked expensive. Is there a shorter list of "things that probably need replacing"?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Is there a shorter list of "things that probably need replacing"?

With unknown brakes there is no short list, though I can guarantee the roller tracks are shot.

Anything and everything can be the problem as many just do a "quick fix" to get by.

Take them apart, start with just the front or the rears, get them working and move of the the other end. Inspection will tell if you truly need new drums or not.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Are you familiar with the moon on A's or the evergreen A's? Everett and Seattle. This is where belonging to a club really pays off.

[Mitch//pa]

first thing is to pull the wheels and then do a complete evaluation of what would be needed.
along with that all freeplay from the brake pedal to all 4 wheels needs to be addressed.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you had to use the parking brake to stop the car in a panic situation, the brake support plate might look like the one in this picture. And this is even the later plate with the double thickness stop tab. My 28 was twice as bad as this picture because it has the single thickness stop tab. I bent it back and welded it, so now it looks and works like it should again.

Your steel brake drums must have been turned quite a bit to heat and fade as badly as you describe. Redoing the brakes is costly, but can be made more affordable by restoring many of the parts, rather than replacing them. Of course worn drums can't be repaired, so the new cast iron drums are the answer to better brakes.
Also a good brake restoration is still cheaper than an accident.

[wgmatt]

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I agree with Mitch. Take everything apart and start from scratch. I used the "How to stop on a dime" video as my guide and was happy I did.

[Goldhardt]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

If you had to use the parking brake to stop the car in a panic situation, the brake support plate might look like the one in this picture.

So now I know. My parking brake didn't work when I got the car. As I went through it, I found the mangled plate. I wondered what would have caused it. Thanks for the info and the picture.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Also a good brake restoration is still cheaper than an accident.

Agreed!

Things any car of any age should be in this importance:

Steering - without steering you cant control anything - you could have brakes that stop on a dime and an engine to go 0-60 in 3 seconds but neither one will help much if you cant change direction.

brakes - second most important system - you can get going under any ammount of power but if you cant stop it your in for a ride

Engine/drivetrain - third most important due to the fact the other 2 in an accident avoidance situation the engine is merely dead weight in the car.

[PC/SR]

Ian: I just did a complete brake overhaul and it took me a month and a half and cost more than I figured. Let me pass on a few tips that may save you some time.
There are lots of threads here in the Search feature for brake work. Check them out thoroughly before you start taking things apart, and as you continue your work. They cover everything. Here are a couple of thoughts.
1. Do the front brakes first, they are easier(for me anyway). If the lever is not forward of vertical, either your brake shoes are shot, or the front brake actuating pin (Snyders part #A 2075)is too short, or both. For a long time the replacement pins were made too short and needed "pills" to correct the lever angle. Maybe someone put those in your car. Think seriously about adding Flathead Teds floaters. Do check the shoes to be sure that the roller pins are not wobbly in the holes in the shoes they go through.
2. The new cast iron drums are great. Unless your wheel bearings are fairly new or in good shape, it is probably worth while to replace them and the races in the new drums while you are at it. You will never have to worry about them again.
3. The brake centering tool is worth the price (40) for a first class job. Otherwise one side of the shoe may rub and the other not engage. You can wind up having the drum lathed out to accomodate the shoe when you do not need to do that. (Bending the roller track is an iffy proposition. I bent the fronts a tiny amount for centering. The new roller tracks from the suppliers I used on the rear are hardened and cannot be bent. Another story.)
4. The rear brakes were, for me, more difficult. The emergency brake support plate as shown in Tom's photo has probably been used when the car was moving, which will move the entire lining band forward. Do not use it for braking unless a true emergency. There is play there as the toggle link expands, and the wheels will move a few inches to the support and bend things. There is not precise angle for the rear actuating lever as there is for the front.
5. Unless your rear brake tracks and rollers are in good condition, think about Flathead Teds shoe centering pins. (Synders A2045FHT--Brattons has them too.) They make centering much easier and you do not have to bend anything. They are advertised for the rear brakes, but I do not know why they could not be use on the front too. Maybe someone here who has tried it will know if that is a problem.
6. While not brakes exactly, check out the rear hub fit on the axle. The end of the hub should be at or close to the end of the axle threads so you can tighten the drums down on the axle. Do get new nuts and washers, and new axle keys.
7. For the machine work you may need, to fit hubs in the new drums, lathe to fit, etc, find someone who knows A's, or at least is not a "production" shop. They need individual attention.
8. High spots on the linings for final fitting can be done by sanding the linings with 80 grit paper. Don't tell any one I said this. I do not want to be sued or have people yelling at me.
You are right, a complete brake rebuild is not cheap after 85 years of use. But I at least feel confident for the first time in a long time about the brakes, and they will outlast me.
Did I mention check the Search feature for info? It is all there in different threads and well worth the time reading and sorting it out.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Are you familiar with the moon on A's or the evergreen A's? Everett and Seattle. This is where belonging to a club really pays off.

Yes I am a member of the Moon on A club. Meetings are so close to the house I could push my truck into the restaurant parking lot if I couldn't get it started.

I feel like it's my responsibility to cast my net of stupid questions far and wide, no sense making those guys answer all of them. I agree there is nothing like belonging to a club, without the help of Moon on A I never would have diagnosed all the gremlins I found shortly after my purchase.

Thank you for all your responses, I'll pull the wheels and post the pictures.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

Ian: I just did a complete brake overhaul and it took me a month and a half and cost more than I figured. Let me pass on a few tips that may save you some time...

Lots of good info. I saved your post for future reference. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Yes I am a member of the Moon on A club. Meetings are so close to the house I could push my truck into the restaurant parking lot if I couldn't get it started.

I feel like it's my responsibility to cast my net of stupid questions far and wide, no sense making those guys answer all of them. I agree there is nothing like belonging to a club, without the help of Moon on A I never would have diagnosed all the gremlins I found shortly after my purchase.

Thank you for all your responses, I'll pull the wheels and post the pictures.

Well, dont forget the age old saying: The only stupid question is the one not asked".

ive learned even if you take 1000 pictures you will never have that picture just right to see how something goes...so ask questions as someone else has been there done that before you.

[waxhead]

I have also recently done a complete brake upgrade and agree with everything PC/SR said. Replace the wheel bearings at the same time if you can afford to do so, do the front brakes first as they are easier, and I installed Flathead Ted's kit and cast iron drums, and recommend these also if the budget will allow.

Good luck.

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Yes I am a member of the Moon on A club. Meetings are so close to the house I could push my truck into the restaurant parking lot if I couldn't get it started.

I feel like it's my responsibility to cast my net of stupid questions far and wide, no sense making those guys answer all of them. I agree there is nothing like belonging to a club, without the help of Moon on A I never would have diagnosed all the gremlins I found shortly after my purchase.

Thank you for all your responses, I'll pull the wheels and post the pictures.

Ian, I have never heard a stupid question, but I have heard enough stupid answers to question my sanity.

I started doing the brakes on the old one by replacing everything t do with the front brakes: - drums, shoes, wheel bearings, flathead ted kit, etc. A great improvement I can hardly wait to do the back brakes when I recover from my surgery.

Ian