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Old 12-27-2020, 05:48 PM   #1
Lawrie
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Default camshaft profile

I'm building a spare engine that is 276 ,I had to sleeve one cylinder as the block was bad on that cylinder,(C69a)
Looking out a better cam for it ,I checked a few in my pile, I have a nearly new stock one from a 99A , I mapped it out and then did the same with an EAC cam,( a bad one with one lobe messed up)
you can easy see the difference between them .
stock cam .303 lift with no clearance, EAC cam .327 lift with no clearance
I used valves with the head machined down to measure the cam lift and profile.
I dont have an early 33 steel cam(except for the one in my 34) so cant see what the difference that would be, but they seem to have better timing than the later ones, as the 34 engine is really nice.
I,m not smart enough to work out how much more area or air or whatever the difference in the two cams would be, but you can visably see it on the map
Lawrie
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File Type: jpg PC270036.jpg (70.0 KB, 84 views)
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Old 12-27-2020, 11:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: camshaft profile

So, the difference is .024' lift between the two cams you've checked. The difference in flow rates is illustrated with your excellent graph. But does the engine actually receive that difference, or is it partly lost through friction or whatever? Like you, I'm not smart enough to know...Thing is, the more a port can flow, the slower the velocity of the incoming mixture. Then it's still got to get through the two 90* bends into the cylinder. Where exactly is the restriction? Do we want flow or velocity? Supercharging provides a measurable increase in both...Dunno...duh!
The eternal debate when discussing flatheads.
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Old 12-28-2020, 12:04 AM   #3
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Default Re: camshaft profile

Back in the day, as they say. The comparison of cams was done by the area under the groan, Two cams with the same lift can have a different profile as you say sooooo. Check the difference in lift for say 30 degs before and after max lift. One cam will have more area. That. the one to use. Question do any of thase old cams have any numbers on them?? Thanks
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Old 12-28-2020, 12:29 AM   #4
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Back when I was a pimply faced teenager, just getting into these things, everyone who 'knew' about these things said to run a 5T cam...so I did....as I read/learnt more, I was turned onto the early steel cam, about the Elgin race, where 'stock' 34 roadsters were clocked at over 100 MPH....and how actually, Ford in 1935 introduced the cast iron cam and 'detuned' it with the introduction of fatter/heavier bodies.
So, I found one of these steel cams and fitted it into the engine that previously ran the 5T, no other changes. I could 'feel' the difference....
Since then, every engine I build runs a steel cam, even if it's reground to a 'performance' grind, I just think steel is a better material for a cam than cast iron.
Then again, I also consider the early engines to be better than the post war offerings. I have never built an 8BA series engine in any configuration.
And, the camshaft, as important as it is, is only a part of the way an engine performs.
We're still stuck with an obsolete engine design, that's biggest drawback is it's inability to breathe
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Old 12-28-2020, 02:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: camshaft profile

Will check tomorrow.
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Old 12-29-2020, 02:15 AM   #6
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Gramps, The cam with 327 lift has EAC-A stamped on the dist end.
the other stock one has 91A on the cam between the lobes and L stamped on the dist end.
the third one I mapped out ,( the one I'm going to use)I had cut the 8ba distributor drive end off and made up a little disc to drive the helmet distributor and there fore the numbers are gone,BUT it must have been an EAB as it mapped out exactly the same.
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Old 12-29-2020, 08:12 AM   #7
Ol' Ron
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The area under the graph, is a good secret???
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Old 12-29-2020, 11:07 AM   #8
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I'm eager to install the L-100 cam from Tony Price in my '32 (8 BA). 'Too much' cam can be a pain as I found out trying to use an ancient grind that cost power until 3000 rpm. The Max-1 in my '41 is very driveable with decent power all the way to 4500 rpm. I liked compression and displacement for power until I skunked myself with too much cam. I guess I'm now a cam , compression , displacement guy.
I sourced my adj lifters from VanPelt....made in Europe not China. Dead ringers for

my last full set of Johnsons which I cannot bring myself to use.
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Old 12-29-2020, 06:09 PM   #9
Ol' Ron
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Gofas has the original Johnsons.
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:08 PM   #10
38 coupe
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Default Re: camshaft profile

I'm not going to pretend that I'm a camshaft expert since I know I'm not. However, some nice folks that are experts at flathead camshafts have a website with all sorts of information.
https://www.tildentechnologies.com/C...rformance.html


What I got from all the reading is to determine what type of driving you are doing, then go get a cam that does that very well. I like my flatheads to run well from idle to 3,000 rpm so factory cam it is for me.
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: camshaft profile

38 coupe, I too used the stock factory cams, but on my latest spare engine I'm using an EAC cam.
Or if using an earlier eng the stock 32-33 steel cam is very good.
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Old 01-02-2021, 09:00 AM   #12
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I find the cam design change from the 32-36 profile to the 37-48 profile interesting (link with numbers here). I'll throw out a guess here based on it looks like Ford moved the torque curve lower in the rev range in 1937. That happened at the same time most of production switched from 4.11 or lower axles to 3.78 axles. My guess is Ford designed for the same road speed, then cammed the engine to run efficiently at a lower rpm with the higher speed axle.

Lawrie, my memory is your 33 runs the stock 4.11 axle. If so it makes sense to me that the earlier cam would work better in that car for you. The later cam would make the car more sensitive to throttle changes off idle, then run out of breath when you are running down the highway.

My only direct experience with stock vs modified flathead cam came during the an Early Ford V8 Texas Tour in Fredericksburg Tx. I was in the host club, and Dad and I agreed to run last so we could help with anyone experiencing car trouble. There was a couple with a car (35 coupe?) set up to run the Great American Race, with a "Great Race" built flathead (their words). I don't remember the exact specs, but it had a "3/4 race" cam, dual exhaust, etc. They waited a while after everyone else had left, and told us to go ahead. They were going to be stopping, starting uphill, doing acceleration tests, etc. to base line their car on hills, and told us we wouldn't be able to keep up in our stock 37 fordor sedan. They finally pulled out and we followed. I soon realized I had to back out of the throttle on the 37 on hills to stay behind them. In normal driving up to ≈50 mph our stock 21 stud 37 fordor simply outran them (obviously this is not representative of what might have happened with a high rpm situation like a drag race).

And Lawrie, thank you for posting your findings (should have included that in my earlier post!).

Last edited by 38 coupe; 01-02-2021 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 01-02-2021, 04:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: camshaft profile

38 coupe, our 33 has a 260ci 99a engine with a stock 99a era cam ,the bottom one on my graph, our 33 has a 3.78 rear and spend most of its time touring, towing the c/van(we are away in it for two weeks tomorrow),
But my experience with the stock 33 steel cam comes from the 33 babbit engine we used before the 99a one in the 33(it is the original eng),it had the 4.11 gears then, it was and still is a really nice engine, so much so,I fitted it to our 34 3w with a 3.54 and it goes like a rocket.
I will post a result when we change out the 99a engine in the 33 for a 276 C69A with the EAC cam ,that won't be for quite a while as the 99a engine is going very nicely.
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Old 01-02-2021, 11:07 PM   #14
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Lawrie, your 33 engine probably not only has the steel camshaft, but also a forged steel crankshaft! Only someone who has driven an 'early' Ford V8 , can possibly conceive of how well they run. In my opinion, they were the finest V8's Henry built. Like you, I've built many engines [although no dragster engines in my case]...The knowledgeable people understand there is no substitute for cubic inches displacement, which automatically discounts the [best] early engines as candidates to be rebuilt. So, accordingly, they are led to believe 8BA series engines are the way to go to build a good, reliable, strong, flathead engine to propel their pride and joy down the road....additionally [a big plus factor!], these later engines have lock in shell big end bearings, so easy to 'throw together'.
These same people are dumbfounded, when they get overtaken and left behind by some old stocker!! wtf? Eventually they meet up with you and ask "What have you got under the hood?" When you reply "just the original 21 stud", they are gobsmacked, every time. But, I know you've experienced this too....trust me, Henry knew a thing or two.
I believe 38 coupe's answer above to pretty well sum it up.
It's not just the cam, it's the entire package.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:31 AM   #15
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Yes Brian a few years back we were out by Roma in the 33, with the Babbit engine in, we went on a run out to a town called Surat,( the last place the Cobb and co stage coach went to) another guy went to overtake is in a 39 ford sedan, so as I saw him coming I put the foot down in the end I eased off as he couldn't get passed.later at dinner he came up and asked if I had a mercury engine in the 33, He wouldn't,t believe me until I lifted the bonnet and he saw the 21 stud 33 engine.
it would wind the speedo to upwards of 80 mph any time with the 4.11 gears.
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Old 01-03-2021, 08:28 AM   #16
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Default Re: camshaft profile

We went through Roma on our way to your house, Lawrie.
Wayno
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Old 01-11-2021, 01:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: camshaft profile

Lawrie here's just a physical view showing a steel cam and a 5T , note the ramp on the steel cam.
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File Type: jpg cam steel 1.jpg (21.5 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Cam s T5.jpg (31.5 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Cam s 2.jpg (62.2 KB, 54 views)
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:09 AM   #18
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The EAC cam is a 52/53 Mercury cam.
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Old 01-11-2021, 08:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkwrench View Post
Lawrie here's just a physical view showing a steel cam and a T5 , note the ramp on the steel cam.
Thank you. Will be hunting for one now.
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: camshaft profile

I'm not sure what everybody thinks a '5T' or '5-T' cam really is? I've never seen a 'T5' - did some of you guys transpose the number/letter up above?

I've seen the '5-T' markings on plenty of cast cams - both early ones (with the press-on gear) and later 4-bolt versions. I've not degreed any of these cams to see if the '5-T' is actually a grind number, or something else.
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