Here we go again...

[RCM]

1956 223 six stock.
A couple of days ago, while the rain gave us a brake, I went for a drive just to warm her up. She started right up but the iddle was a bit shaky.. Drove her some 3km or so and then she started to hesitate, not at throttle but just cruising with the foot just leaning onto the pedal. Brought her back home and called it quit.
Next day I started her up, and she now idles very roughly and stops runnin after a bit. She's got new points, rotor, condenser and sparkplugs. Point and sparkplugs gap are withing specs. Today I will install new dizzy cap and wires.
The current (original FoMoCo) dizzy cap's wire contacts are awfull, green with oxidation. Only yesterday did I recieve Rockauto's goodies. The spark wires are also original FoMoCos and spark is likely to be jumping due to bad insulation / possible cracks.
Havent yet touched the dizzys advance.
Do you think the new wires and cap will solve it or is it something you have experienced before with other cause(s)?
Thanks

[streetdreams]

Oxidized cap contacts and 50 year old spark plug wires in humid weather. That might be the problem. What is status of coil? Leave the advance alone after verifying timing is set to proper initial.

[RCM]

Thanks street dreams, I hope the new cap and wires might solve the problem, I'll know later on. The old ones are long due, but I'm still dealing with the first things since I only own the car recently. Already went thru the radiator, hoses, waterpump, wipers, next come the brakes and so forth.
How can the coil be tested without going to the shop?
Regards

[y'sguy]

Just out of curiosity, change the cap first, test. change one wire at a time and test each time. At least you will know if one or a few are bad. Plug wires and there condition is a highly overlooked issue.

[RCM]

Thanks y's, this procedure sounds good to discover bad parts.
More updates after testing new parts.
Regards

[54vicky]

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could also be dirt on the cap from your saturday disaster.bondo dust primer dust combined with damp weather will do that.another thing I experienced back in time was moisture on the inside of cap causing spark to jump around.after warmed up and sitting if warm enough will cure it but if engine warm and still cold outside it may not dry try taking cap off and spray with wd40 if you have or a similar moisture displacing spray.then try before changing anything does not take a lot of time.had to do that a lot back in time before hei with lower voltage we had

[RCM]

Got it 54 Vicky, thanks for the ideas.

Spark wires werent delivered yesterday, or better, the were delivered but with the wrong size...it sucks... another day waiting..

[54vicky]

Originally Posted by RCM

Got it 54 Vicky, thanks for the ideas.

Spark wires werent delivered yesterday, or better, the were delivered but with the wrong size...it sucks... another day waiting..

I think all of us have had that happen

[RCM]

No improvements.
I replaced the cap and wires (had to build them myself as sadly, around here, no one delivers anything outside the usual, neither are the copper terminals available) with little benefit coming from that.
Tomorrow I'll replace the weathered wires in and out the dizzy (point feeding and resistor)
Then what? Coil?
Suggestions?

Thanks guys.

[RCM]

Engine manual says that if "engine starts but fails to keep running", I should check:
Breaker points
Sparkplugs
Resistor for an open circuit
Leaks in high tension wiring

uhh... what do they mean by an open circuit?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by RCM

I should check:
Resistor for an open circuit

uhh... what do they mean by an open circuit?

Next to the ignition coil or on the firewall should be an Ignition Resistor.
It may look like this one....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291291652536...witem=&vxp=mtr

or this one...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111399307079...witem=&vxp=mtr

If there is no electrical continuity from one of it's terminals - thru the resistor - to the other terminal it is "open" and needs to be replaced.
Since your car is running, just poorly, it isn't a bad ignition resistor. Unless one of the wires to or from it has bad insulation and is touching (shorting) on the body or engine.

FYI: If the ignition wiring in your car is as original this resistor is bypassed (for a hotter spark) during 'starting', but connected in-line between the ignition switch 'run' contact and the coil '+' terminal when the engine is running. The slightly lower voltage helps extend the life of the points.
If the ignition resistor is defective the engine will shut off as soon as you release the ignition key from the 'start' position.
.

[oj]

Can't you find anybody with a Sun distributor testing machine? I'd pull the distributor, coil, wires, plugs, resistor etc anything associated to the ignition and set it up on the machine and it'll run it up as if it is on the car. Then you fix all the little & big problems right there. Theres lots of bits and pieces that make up the ignition system from capacitor to points to slop in the distributor bearings, wore out counterweights and leaking vacuum pots.
Unless you've got years of experience dealing with old woreout junky stuff then the chances of you replacing a particular item and have everything work proper is very, very low or slim to none.
I'm not being negative and I admire your efforts and willingness. Its that I'd like to see you proud that you've fixed something and by finding that Sun machine will let you do just that.
I work on stuff like this every day and know disappointment when things don't get fixed.

[RCM]

OK guys, I thank you for the input and for trying to help. The truth is that I’m so lost that I can’t even structure a decent answer or comment for all the leads you gave.
Let’s see, for now what I have accomplished is for the car to start right away and keep running but the idle is still rough… and the six ran so smooth.. On Sat morning I had my father-in-law helping. Just as I cranked it for the first time to start the day he noticed immediately spurts of gas coming from a bend on the metal fuel line. There were two holes on that bend. I thought I was out of the woods and I fixed that promptly. Cranked it again, she started but running rough, all the same. Checked all the sparks and they are there but seemingly weak. The spark plugs, which had a beautiful gray tan on them, are now black n fluffy, indicating (by the manual) gas fouling.
Then noticed that the wire coming out of the resistor and feeding the points was almost broken (in fact it broke in my hand later) at the dizzys terminal so I replaced that. Cleaned all the other contacts in the resistor and in the coil, but with no noticeable results. Checked the points gap and it had a tiny gap, so I set that to spec (.024) thinking how dumb had I been not going straight to checking points, but she ran even worse, so I took it back to what it was.
I also checked the cap for leaks or cracks and that zeroed out. Wires are brand new, built them myself. Points and condenser are new, spark plugs are new.
My primary suspect now is the coil. I’ll check that and replace if bad. I will also install the old rotor, points and condenser (still FoMoCo!) and give it a try at proper gap setting, since it’s a mistery to me how setting new stuff at .024 makes run even worse.
For now I can tell that: engine starts right away, idles roughly, plugs have gas fouling, plugs have a seemingly weak spark, I don’t trust the new condenser nor the new points, I don’t know the state of the coil, cap is new and looks good, wires are new built by me. Mechanical fuel pump is probably good because the pre-filter gets filled right away as I crank.
I haven’t checked for vac leaks (how can I do it “scientifically”?) I would also try to adjust fuel/air mixture, but I’m afraid to make things even worst. I’ll have to eliminate electrical causes first. Won’t harm.
Today I’ll take the coil to a local shop so they can check her for me.

Keep it up. Regards.

[Dobie Gillis]

To check for vacuum leaks spray carb cleaner, brake cleaner, WD40 or even water around the base of the carb and the intake manifold where it meets the head. If the idle smooths out/speeds up you've found the general area where a leak exists.

I suggest converting to electronic ignition with a Pertronix, Accel or similar unit. It may not solve the immediate problem, but once you get everything fixed you'll find the engine starts easier and runs more smoothly and you won't have to adjust/replace the points, etc. Pertronix has a 6 volt version; don't know if Accel does or not.

[RCM]

Thanks for the tip, I will try that.
I had though of the electronic ignition. Mine is already a 12v system. I know there are dif opinions around this subject. I'll try a few things before but I know there are benefits on the long run.
Regards

[y'sguy]

Have you examined the braided copper wire within the dist. to see if it is in perfect condition? I have seen many that are fatigued and barely connected after all these years. Thy can be easily made and replaced. Often overlooked issue.

[RCM]

No y's, could you please specify? Is it the marron one on top?

[Diavolo]

If I'm not mistaken, there are actually two wires. The maroon one that you mention and a ground. Either of them can just fall apart with time. If they look like junk, replace them with similar gauge wire. If you replace that top one, make sure the replacement wire has enough flex because it can affect timing if it doesn't. This job is best done on a work bench so things can get cleaned and inspected under good light.

Pay attention to any type of paper isolation type washers, etc. If yours is similar to mine, that maroon one goes through the body and the ground is under the advance assembly.



12264 is the ground, 12233 is the insulator for 12216 which it the power coming to the points and condensor. For my setup, I just got similar gauge wire and spent a little time replacing the old ones with new ones.

Hope that helps.

[RCM]

It sure helps, or at least it raises some potentialy important issues:

12264 is not isolated on my dizzy, goes under the advance plate and it bolts onto the body. All ok I guess because it is GROUND.

12216 brings power from the coil to points and condenser, being isolated from ground through 12223 assy, right?

So, on my dizzy this 12216 wire is NOT isolated at its end, right before going through the dizzys body into 12233, because that maroon cloth is threaded (see pic top right).

I assume this is NOT ok because power can easily jump to the metal dizzy's body.

If it is supposed to be isolated why would they make it in cloth and not in rubber?

Bear with me will ya?
Thanks

[Blackpearleb434]

have you checked for vacuum leaks at the vaccum advance diaphram? It may have split on your drive starting you problem, try disconnecting the vacuum line and plugging it to see if idle improves....you could also connect a syring to the vaccum advance diaphram to see if you can move the breaker plate.
Cheers