Timing gear cover removal questions

[Fred K-OR]

Think I may have to check over my timing gear. Question I have is how to get the 4 pan bolts out of the timing gear cover? On my rig, it seems like the pan is only maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch away from the front cross member. I can't get a wrench in there to remove the middle two bolts.

After taking the front motor mount bolts out, can I jack the front of the engine up enough to get them out without messing up the rear motor mounts? I have original rear mounts. Hate to make this a bigger job that I have to.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I tried to search the barn files to find answers but could not find any.

[1955cj5]

You can take the side cover off if all you want to do is look at the teeth..there is one pan bolt underneath but is easy to get to......the front cover will have to come of if you need to change the gear though..

[PC/SR]

Usually you can get a 1/2 inch socket on a long extension in there. Sometimes the bad news is that the entire engine and all has moved forward and that places the bolts up under the cross member where you cannot get to them. The only solution I know to that is to remove the engine. Hope someone else has a better solution to that.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Think I may have to check over my timing gear. Question I have is how to get the 4 pan bolts out of the timing gear cover? On my rig, it seems like the pan is only maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch away from the front cross member. I can't get a wrench in there to remove the middle two bolts.

After taking the front motor mount bolts out, can I jack the front of the engine up enough to get them out without messing up the rear motor mounts? I have original rear mounts. Hate to make this a bigger job that I have to.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I tried to search the barn files to find answers but could not find any.

To remove the 2 center pan bolts I use a 1/4 inch drive ratchet with an extender and a 1/2 inch swivel socket. I would advise first loosening the 4 rear motor mount bolts and then jacking up the engine just barely enough to get a cement block and wood blocks underneath the pan to support the engine. Otherwise you risk cracking the flywheel housing.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by goodcar

To remove the 2 center pan bolts I use a 1/4 inch drive ratchet with an extender and a 1/2 inch swivel socket. I would advise first loosening the 4 rear motor mount bolts and then jacking up the engine just barely enough to get a cement block and wood blocks underneath the pan to support the engine. Otherwise you risk cracking the flywheel housing.

Do you think I should remove one of the rear engine mount bolts on each side or will loosening them be enough? Hate to take any of them out. They are a pain to get back in.

[Fred K-OR]

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Originally Posted by goodcar

To remove the 2 center pan bolts I use a 1/4 inch drive ratchet with an extender and a 1/2 inch swivel socket. I would advise first loosening the 4 rear motor mount bolts and then jacking up the engine just barely enough to get a cement block and wood blocks underneath the pan to support the engine. Otherwise you risk cracking the flywheel housing.

Looks like I will have to go to Harbor Freight to get some new tools!

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

You can take the side cover off if all you want to do is look at the teeth..there is one pan bolt underneath but is easy to get to......the front cover will have to come of if you need to change the gear though..

I thought about doing this also. So maybe a good first step.

[denniskliesen]

If you have to jack the front of your engine up, remove your accelerator linkage assembly from the back of your engine first. Many times this gets bent from a lack of clearance.

[redmodelt]

You will need to take two of the 4 rear engine mounting bolts out and loosen the other two so the engine can swivel. We have a small shop made screw jack that fits between the pulley and crank guide to push the engine back in cases like this.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

You will need to take two of the 4 rear engine mounting bolts out and loosen the other two so the engine can swivel. We have a small shop made screw jack that fits between the pulley and crank guide to push the engine back in cases like this.

I may have to come up and visit with this rig on a trailer if I can't get this bolt out. Thanks for the info.

[V4F]

I use a 1/4" set up . it gets in there because of its size .

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by V4F

I use a 1/4" set up . it gets in there because of its size .

Yep!.....with a flex-socket..

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks guys. I did get a u-joint thing for my 1/4" socket and it looks like I can get them off. But any ideas on how to get them back in when putting things back together? Maybe put some tape on the socket to hold bolt in socket to get it started??? Any other "tricks" to get the bolts back in??

[Mikeinnj]

Reply #2 above is the easiest way to check the timing gear teeth and possible wobble.Why take the whole cover off if you don't have to ?

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

Reply #2 above is the easiest way to check the timing gear teeth and possible wobble.Why take the whole cover off if you don't have to ?

You are right. But just thought I would get prepared in case I needed to put on a new gear.

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have used a long pry bar between the front crossmember and the oil pan rail. There is enough "give" to then insert a 1/4" or 3/8" drive 1/2" socket on a long extension. This works better with two people: one holding the pry bar applying pressure and the other using the ratchet extension and socket. The pry bar works best if there are Float-O-Motor rear mounts.
Be sure to turn the steering wheel all the way to the right or left (I can't remember which!) so that the tie rod no longer blocks access to the front four bolts. You'll see which way works better once you try this. For some reason, I can never remember which way gives more clearance. It's a 50-50 chance, but I usually guess wrong 80% of the time on the first attempt.
Marshall

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks Marshall. Will have to get to this project once I get some gaskets ordered so I can take off the parts. And also maybe a new timing gear.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Don't forget to take out the hidden bolt beneath the generator. It's hidden in a deep recess and will require either a deep socket or a regular socket on an extension. The bolt's existence is not obvious, so it's easy to miss your first attempt at changing a timing gear beside the road. The first time I tried to remove the front timing gear cover in 1968, I didn't know about this "hidden" bolt because you can't see it like the others. There weren't many decent "How to Repair Your Model A" books back then like there are now, so I was winging it. I got all the bolts out that I found and supported the engine from underneath the pan. But no matter what I did, I could not get that %$#*^ front cover off, even prying it. Was I stupid! The car was stranded on a side street in Iowa City and sat there for a month while I attended college during the weekdays. I would work on the car to replace the stripped timing gear on the weekends. By the third frustrating weekend without getting that timing gear cover off, I was ready to sell the darned thing. The engine was so greasy and cruddy from the previous owner that I never even noticed the recessed tunnel with the bolt inside. A guy happened to drive by in his nearly completed 1928 Roadster and looked things over after listening to my tirade of frustration. "Did you take out the bolt in here?" he asked, pointing to the recessed hole. "Nope, I didn't know there was a bolt in there", I replied. DUH!!!! After taking that bolt out in his presence, the front cover fairly fell off.
LESSON LEARNED and never forgotten. I now always remind people (newbies) about the presence of this ^%$*& bolt so that they don't go through what I did in 1968. It almost drove me to Chevies!
Marshall

[WHN]

The last time I needed to replace a timing gear. I took the car to a Ford Tractor Dealer service center. Two hours later I drove out. New gear in place, $150.00 cost.

I got to watch. Much easier. Enjoy.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by WHN

The last time I needed to replace a timing gear. I took the car to a Ford Tractor Dealer service center. Two hours later I drove out. New gear in place, $150.00 cost.

I got to watch. Much easier. Enjoy.

That is tempting!!! We do have a good automotive shop close by that does everything.

[Synchro909]

Getting to those screws across the front of the sump can be a hassle. While they are out, I cut a screw driver slot in them. A screw driver gets in there easily and makes fitting and removal easier. You may like to try it.

[TerryH]

Fred....if you replace the timing gear, I would sure recommend one of the newer laminated type instead of the typical all fiber gear. I had a new one installed this past year and all is fine.

[700rpm]

Fred, I sent you an email.

[CarlG]

I would suggest one of Mr Dan's bronze camshaft gears with the matching crank gear.

[heneste]

Sometimes in a tight fit you can reset the bolts in place by using the tape method on a socket as you mentioned or use a small enough piece of rubber hose to grab the bolt at the head. Once seated in a few turns, pull off the hose and screw in fully with a flexible socket.

[Fred K-OR]

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Originally Posted by 1955cj5

You can take the side cover off if all you want to do is look at the teeth..there is one pan bolt underneath but is easy to get to......the front cover will have to come of if you need to change the gear though..

Well I got to this point. I have ordered new gaskets, taken out (I think) all of the bolts that hold the side cover on, but I can't get the thing to come off. Yes I did take the pan bolt out. Do I have to take the right front motor mount bolt out also just to get the side cover off? Are there any other "secrets" to get this side cover off besides pounding on it?

Need some ideas how to get the side cover off now that, I think, all the bolts are out? I think I put to much gasket cement on the gaskets when I put the front cover and side cover on back a few years.

[Fred K-OR]

Sorry to bother you guys. I got it off! The harder banging on it did the job. Now to go to the next step.

[1955cj5]

Well, there you go...just needed the right sized hammer.....do you have a picture of the gear?

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

Well, there you go...just needed the right sized hammer.....do you have a picture of the gear?

I turned the engine over with the crank, and the gear did not show any problems as far as bad teeth, etc. It rotated true and did not wobble.

I started the engine and the gear ran true, no wobble, no banging against the body of the engine or the cover.

I tried to post some pictures. You will note some curd in the teeth. This is from when I cleaned the gasket off the side of the cover. I also took a movie of it running but don't know if it will post. Could not get the movie to post but could email if someone wants it.

Where do I go from here? Any good ideas?

[1955cj5]

What led you to suspect the timing gear in the first place? Was there a noise of some sort?


.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

What led you to suspect the timing gear in the first place? Was there a noise of some sort?


.

Yes, I do have a "clicking" sound knock. I am not an expert with this type of thing, but it just did not seem like a bearing knock.

I did check the valve settings because I thought it may be a value that needed to be adjusted. I did find the #6 valve with was at .026 instead of .013. I did adjust it to .014. It did not seem to stop the noise. But I may have messed it up and did not get it adjusted the way it should have been or it became un-adjusted again.

Receive a number of comments on this site and from other Model Aers that said that it may be a bad timing gear. So that is why I checked the timing gear. But it looks like the gear is OK and not messed up.

So now don't know which way to go from here. Any good ideas?

[1955cj5]

Well, I re-read some of your "knock knock" thread......you mentioned that you shorted each cylinder individually...did you short both #2 and #3 together and see if the knock goes away?

I also have a small noise, it happens at road speed only and responds to the spark lever. It wasn't there before, and I was hoping to take the side cover off and find excessive valve clearance as you did......

Already did the timing gear inspection...that's how I got the picture posted earlier!

Randy

[denniskliesen]

Have you tried running it with the fan belt off? I had a noise like you describe and it was the fan belt.

[Marshall V. Daut]

When you had the timing gear covers off, did you check the backlash between the fiber timing gear and the steel crankshaft gear? It should only be .003 - .005" or so. Tolerable is up to .006" or .007", as I recall. More than that and you'll get a "click" between the gear teeth that translates to a slight knock. I just went through this with a friend's Model A engine. The gears had about 0.011" to 0.012" backlash between them, which definitely produced a clicking sound when I rotated them against each other. Feeler gauges confirmed that too much backlash was present and yes, there was a faint knock up front when the engine ran. The fiber gear had been replaced only a few hundred miles before three decades ago, even though the car had not been driven much in the intervening 30+ years. So, the fiber gear was not worn.
Because the Babbitt in the block was so woefully worn, I suspect the crankshaft now sits a little higher inside the block, which would increase the backlash between timing gears. I installed the largest oversized fiber timing gear available because the friend didn't want to spend the money to have the main bearings re-poured. The .005" oversized timing gear reduced the backlash to around .006", which is not ideal, but most certainly softened the clicking/knocking to barely perceptible.
If you didn't check this area, that may be the cause of the elusive knock.
Marshall

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

Well, I re-read some of your "knock knock" thread......you mentioned that you shorted each cylinder individually...did you short both #2 and #3 together and see if the knock goes away?

I also have a small noise, it happens at road speed only and responds to the spark lever. It wasn't there before, and I was hoping to take the side cover off and find excessive valve clearance as you did......

Already did the timing gear inspection...that's how I got the picture posted earlier!

Randy

Randy,

I did get to doing what you suggested above, that is short both #2 and #3 together. Knock was still there. If it went away, what would that indicate?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Because the Babbitt in the block was so woefully worn, I suspect the crankshaft now sits a little higher inside the block, which would increase the backlash between timing gears. I installed the largest oversized fiber timing gear available because the friend didn't want to spend the money to have the main bearings re-poured. The .005" oversized timing gear reduced the backlash to around .006", which is not ideal, but most certainly softened the clicking/knocking to barely perceptible.
If you didn't check this area, that may be the cause of the elusive knock.
Marshall

I must be missing something but what? I would have thought that would reduce the backlash because the camshaft is higher in the block than the crankshaft. Your posts are usually considered and accurate so I must be missing something. I hate that!