The Ford Barn

Henry Hopper · 08-16-2014, 10:56 AM

Given that complete bodies are now reproduced,QC rear ends,etc, ..I was wondering if a manufacturer produced a four or five speed gearbox that slotted straight in place of the original three speeds...no mods at all, just a bolt in and retain the torquetube etc, would there be a huge demand?...I ,for one ,would be very interested if the price was anything like realistic....my coupe drives great, but out of all the old Fords Ive owned, it's always the gearbox that bugs me, especially in today's traffic and fuel prices.

I'm sure that it cannot be that hard to cast a casing and fit a set of cogs..lol.

Ol' Ron · 08-16-2014, 11:05 AM

The T-170 in it's many various styles is a good choice, unfortunately it's not a bolt in. needs a hogs head for pre 49 and tale shaft modification to closed drive shaft. This gives 3 sp with Od. Have one in my truck and it works very good. shift lever comes out about 2' lower than stock. These are getting harder to find. The yard that found this one has been looking for another for the past year, with no luck.

Henry Hopper · 08-16-2014, 02:20 PM

Ron, I know about the swap ins with adaptors, I was just thinking of a brand new purpose built bit of kit that slid straight in and ticked all our boxes for getting 4/5 speed gears and the clutch linkage and torquetube, gear lever etc just fell into place.....a lot of guys Hop a flatty and the old three speeds don't let the potential be realised.

Ol' Ron · 08-16-2014, 02:44 PM

We can all dream. I think the future trans for the flatty is thr toyota W55/56. Unfortunately it's open drive.

41PICUP · 08-16-2014, 02:48 PM

Have you thought about a Mitchell Overdrive.
Have one in my 41 pickup, it's great.

Bassman/NZ · 08-16-2014, 05:39 PM

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Model A guys have them, so I guess it's not inconceivable to have them for V8s. Maybe someone interested enough could find out who makes the Model A box and approach them about a V8 one. The Model A one is in the Macs Model A catalog if anyone is interested.

Mart · 08-16-2014, 05:54 PM

It's always the constraint of the K-member in the 32 frame that is the killer. Trying to cram a 5 speed + reverse gearset into the length of an early ford 3 speed is virtually impossible especially when it would need to take the torque of the hottest motors and stand up to heavy abuse.

Mart.

wga · 08-17-2014, 12:14 AM

Ol Ron is right as usual. The Toyota trans is an easy fit, good ratios.
For a new gear box, that is very expensive - tooling for the gear sets, and the castings - who is going to cast these in the US? And a price that is 'friendly' enough for you to purchase. Then how many are going to buy these? I work for a company that manufactures industrial gear sets, like the kind used to lift bridges or move conveyors. When we design and build new gearing, the costs and time involvement is huge.

uncle buck · 08-17-2014, 12:26 AM

While I think it would be a neat accessory , I also believe it would be hard to make a strong enough 5 speed to fit in the stock location - let alone cost effective enough to at least break even on the investment

Brian · 08-17-2014, 01:50 AM

But why is a 5 speed so neccessary? I feel that the majority of owners, looking for a bolt in upgrade, would desire the overdrive feature. The old F series 3&1 trans has been successfully cut down and adapted to torque tube drive, albiet about 1 1/2" longer than a stock 3 speed. Surely, that 'extra' 1 1/2" could be eliminated by; shortening up input shaft, reducing the throw between all gears, etc, in order to fit within the stock dimensions of an early Ford chassis, and fitting it all within a new, specially designed case?, or something similar? Food for thought...

Talkwrench · 08-17-2014, 06:04 AM

Umm wonder what a Mitchell would cost all up landed in Australia..? : o P

Henry Hopper · 08-17-2014, 11:12 AM

I realise that manufacturing a full box would be expensive, but what if a gear set out of another box was utilised , say a T5, and a casing was made to accept those cogs.....I don't know, but just a thought maybe.Even make the casing out of steel plate like TVR did when they built there own motor.....cad cam ,laser cutting..I'm sure it could be done.....utilise existing bearings and seals and selectors etc.to keep costs down.Maybe a pipe dream but it would be nice to have an off the shelf bolt in option.

moonlight graham · 08-17-2014, 05:22 PM

we're all thinking and dreaming about a 5 speed that fits in the rather small space between the K-member and the bell housing. I would be happy if someone would come up with a product that fits THROUGH the K-member without modification and perhaps bolt to it. I guess it doesn't really matter if the working components are located aft of the K-member. Cutting a torque tube is easy enough and may be a small price to pay.

Geoffrey

Bassman/NZ · 08-17-2014, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

Umm wonder what a Mitchell would cost all up landed in Australia..? : o P

Mitchells are about $3500 here in NZ. The transmission I was thinking of for a Model A is made by Mitchell. It is still a three speed, but has synchros and is much stronger. Perhaps Mitchell would look at an upgraded V8 model. It doesn't worry me particularly because I run an F150 3 + 1 trans and open drive, but it would be cool for guys with stockers.

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 06:14 PM

Unless you have OD capability what would be the point? There are plenty of stock boxes around and all the rebuild parts required.

Pete · 08-17-2014, 06:32 PM

You guys have named all the required parameters.
The transmission needs to fit in existing space.
It needs to be strong enough to stand say 400 hp for street use.
It needs to be a 5 speed so good engine performance can be had
through the gears by not dropping more than say 1000 rpm max
with a gear change. (4 speed with OD)
It needs to be able to have an output end adapted to either closed
or open driveline.
It needs all synchro gears.
It needs customer selectable gear sets at purchase time.

You are asking for Utopia. Not going to happen till they discover
how to disassociate matter.

All of the above named parameters are easily achieved and already
have been EXCEPT, "fitting into the required space".
If you want lots of gears, you will have to bite the bullet and do some
fabrication.

barnfind · 08-18-2014, 07:05 AM

Not familiar with the Toyota W55 transmission so I did some research and got more confused on why it might be an option versus the S10 or Ford 3OD transmissions.

Anyone got a picture of a Toyota W55 mated to a Flathead and what Year and Model # they used?

The black one in this pic looks a bit similar to S10 and could be made to work:
http://www.billzilla.org/t50w50.jpg
http://www.86garage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=972

Ol' Ron · 08-18-2014, 08:06 AM

I have a picture of the modified Flathead bell housing for the Toyota trans. It's in my computer some place, need a grand kid.

Chisel · 08-18-2014, 12:08 PM

Toyota transmission---looks like you would have to be in the back seat to shift it.

barnfind · 08-18-2014, 04:03 PM

Since many folks want to keep the stock K member,
How about using a torque tube setup using a Porsche 924 transaxle in the rear?
That way you could upgrade to IRS or maybe DeDion in the rear at the same time.
I have seen whole cars for less than $1000 on CL and the early 4 Cyl cars were similar in HP to a warmed up Flathead.

http://www.porsche924-944.nl/manual/.../image002e.gif

Just some food for thought since we're dreaming..

08-16-2014, 10:56 AM	#1
Henry Hopper Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: N.W.England Posts: 439	If there was a new gearbox... Given that complete bodies are now reproduced,QC rear ends,etc, ..I was wondering if a manufacturer produced a four or five speed gearbox that slotted straight in place of the original three speeds...no mods at all, just a bolt in and retain the torquetube etc, would there be a huge demand?...I ,for one ,would be very interested if the price was anything like realistic....my coupe drives great, but out of all the old Fords Ive owned, it's always the gearbox that bugs me, especially in today's traffic and fuel prices. I'm sure that it cannot be that hard to cast a casing and fit a set of cogs..lol.

08-16-2014, 11:05 AM	#2
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: If there was a new gearbox... The T-170 in it's many various styles is a good choice, unfortunately it's not a bolt in. needs a hogs head for pre 49 and tale shaft modification to closed drive shaft. This gives 3 sp with Od. Have one in my truck and it works very good. shift lever comes out about 2' lower than stock. These are getting harder to find. The yard that found this one has been looking for another for the past year, with no luck.

08-16-2014, 02:20 PM	#3
Henry Hopper Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: N.W.England Posts: 439	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Ron, I know about the swap ins with adaptors, I was just thinking of a brand new purpose built bit of kit that slid straight in and ticked all our boxes for getting 4/5 speed gears and the clutch linkage and torquetube, gear lever etc just fell into place.....a lot of guys Hop a flatty and the old three speeds don't let the potential be realised.

08-16-2014, 02:44 PM	#4
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: If there was a new gearbox... We can all dream. I think the future trans for the flatty is thr toyota W55/56. Unfortunately it's open drive.

08-16-2014, 02:48 PM	#5
41PICUP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: El Cerrito CA Posts: 338	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Have you thought about a Mitchell Overdrive. Have one in my 41 pickup, it's great.

08-16-2014, 05:39 PM	#6
Bassman/NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napier, New Zealand Posts: 2,001	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Model A guys have them, so I guess it's not inconceivable to have them for V8s. Maybe someone interested enough could find out who makes the Model A box and approach them about a V8 one. The Model A one is in the Macs Model A catalog if anyone is interested.

08-16-2014, 05:54 PM	#7
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: If there was a new gearbox... It's always the constraint of the K-member in the 32 frame that is the killer. Trying to cram a 5 speed + reverse gearset into the length of an early ford 3 speed is virtually impossible especially when it would need to take the torque of the hottest motors and stand up to heavy abuse. Mart.

08-17-2014, 12:14 AM	#8
wga Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 900	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Ol Ron is right as usual. The Toyota trans is an easy fit, good ratios. For a new gear box, that is very expensive - tooling for the gear sets, and the castings - who is going to cast these in the US? And a price that is 'friendly' enough for you to purchase. Then how many are going to buy these? I work for a company that manufactures industrial gear sets, like the kind used to lift bridges or move conveyors. When we design and build new gearing, the costs and time involvement is huge. __________________ Henry Ford designed the flathead without the aid of a computer.

08-17-2014, 12:26 AM	#9
uncle buck Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Snohomish,WA Posts: 1,030	Re: If there was a new gearbox... While I think it would be a neat accessory , I also believe it would be hard to make a strong enough 5 speed to fit in the stock location - let alone cost effective enough to at least break even on the investment

08-17-2014, 01:50 AM	#10
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,834	Re: If there was a new gearbox... But why is a 5 speed so neccessary? I feel that the majority of owners, looking for a bolt in upgrade, would desire the overdrive feature. The old F series 3&1 trans has been successfully cut down and adapted to torque tube drive, albiet about 1 1/2" longer than a stock 3 speed. Surely, that 'extra' 1 1/2" could be eliminated by; shortening up input shaft, reducing the throw between all gears, etc, in order to fit within the stock dimensions of an early Ford chassis, and fitting it all within a new, specially designed case?, or something similar? Food for thought... __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

08-17-2014, 06:04 AM	#11
Talkwrench Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,687	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Umm wonder what a Mitchell would cost all up landed in Australia..? : o P __________________ *"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"*

08-17-2014, 11:12 AM	#12
Henry Hopper Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: N.W.England Posts: 439	Re: If there was a new gearbox... I realise that manufacturing a full box would be expensive, but what if a gear set out of another box was utilised , say a T5, and a casing was made to accept those cogs.....I don't know, but just a thought maybe.Even make the casing out of steel plate like TVR did when they built there own motor.....cad cam ,laser cutting..I'm sure it could be done.....utilise existing bearings and seals and selectors etc.to keep costs down.Maybe a pipe dream but it would be nice to have an off the shelf bolt in option.

08-17-2014, 05:22 PM	#13
moonlight graham Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 46	Re: If there was a new gearbox... we're all thinking and dreaming about a 5 speed that fits in the rather small space between the K-member and the bell housing. I would be happy if someone would come up with a product that fits THROUGH the K-member without modification and perhaps bolt to it. I guess it doesn't really matter if the working components are located aft of the K-member. Cutting a torque tube is easy enough and may be a small price to pay. Geoffrey

08-17-2014, 06:14 PM	#15
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Unless you have OD capability what would be the point? There are plenty of stock boxes around and all the rebuild parts required.

08-17-2014, 06:32 PM	#16
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: If there was a new gearbox... You guys have named all the required parameters. The transmission needs to fit in existing space. It needs to be strong enough to stand say 400 hp for street use. It needs to be a 5 speed so good engine performance can be had through the gears by not dropping more than say 1000 rpm max with a gear change. (4 speed with OD) It needs to be able to have an output end adapted to either closed or open driveline. It needs all synchro gears. It needs customer selectable gear sets at purchase time. You are asking for Utopia. Not going to happen till they discover how to disassociate matter. All of the above named parameters are easily achieved and already have been EXCEPT, "fitting into the required space". If you want lots of gears, you will have to bite the bullet and do some fabrication.

08-18-2014, 07:05 AM	#17
barnfind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 426	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Not familiar with the Toyota W55 transmission so I did some research and got more confused on why it might be an option versus the S10 or Ford 3OD transmissions. Anyone got a picture of a Toyota W55 mated to a Flathead and what Year and Model # they used? The black one in this pic looks a bit similar to S10 and could be made to work: http://www.billzilla.org/t50w50.jpg http://www.86garage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=972

08-18-2014, 08:06 AM	#18
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: If there was a new gearbox... I have a picture of the modified Flathead bell housing for the Toyota trans. It's in my computer some place, need a grand kid.

08-18-2014, 12:08 PM	#19
Chisel Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 232	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Toyota transmission---looks like you would have to be in the back seat to shift it. __________________ Chisel Evil Lurks...for those that don't carry a side arm!!!

08-18-2014, 04:03 PM	#20
barnfind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 426	Re: If there was a new gearbox... Since many folks want to keep the stock K member, How about using a torque tube setup using a Porsche 924 transaxle in the rear? That way you could upgrade to IRS or maybe DeDion in the rear at the same time. I have seen whole cars for less than $1000 on CL and the early 4 Cyl cars were similar in HP to a warmed up Flathead. http://www.porsche924-944.nl/manual/.../image002e.gif Just some food for thought since we're dreaming..