2 Tooth Worm gear

[Dick Deegan]

I am redoing the 2 tooth steering box on my 1930 TS. I am probably going to buy the kit from Brattons that has just about everything except the worm gear, housing and the eccentric rivet.

The sector is worn visibly in my current set up, but I can see no wear on the worm. It has been painted a copper colour and the paint is worn away in the area on the worm where it contacts the sector, but otherwise is looks like new.

My question is: Do the Fordbarn experts usually retain the worm gear when it looks Ok when redoing a steering box and just replace the sector shaft and the other goodies?

Is there something on the worm that I can measure to determine the amount of wear?

The bottom roller bearing was also seized.

[Beauford]

Well, I bought everything including new shaft with worm pressed on already. I did not buy a new sector as it looked fine. Steering was horrible. Bought new sector and works great...

[Brian T]

I cannot give you advice on the 2 tooth box, I was faced with the same decision with my 7 tooth box, due to the difficulty with removing the worm from the shaft I replaced all the worn parts and assembled the box completely and ended with 1 inch of play, tested on the bench before installing, before was 4 plus.
You have a lot more adjustments with the 2 tooth, I am sure someone here will step in with advise.

[Synchro909]

If the sector is worn, the worm will have the same amount of wear. REPLACE IT now or do the job all over again and replace it as soon as you put it back together and drive it.

[Beauford]

Just follow this and it will be a piece of cake....I had 6 inches of play and now I can tap it and wheels move.

http://modelaclub.com/archives/tech-tips/981

[Kurt in NJ]

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If you can adjust it and have the tight spot in the center it's good, if it is loose in the center and tight each side of center the worm is worn out

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Dick Deegan

I am redoing the 2 tooth steering box on my 1930 TS. I am probably going to buy the kit from Brattons that has just about everything except the worm gear, housing and the eccentric rivet.

The sector is worn visibly in my current set up, but I can see no wear on the worm. It has been painted a copper colour and the paint is worn away in the area on the worm where it contacts the sector, but otherwise is looks like new.

My question is: Do the Fordbarn experts usually retain the worm gear when it looks Ok when redoing a steering box and just replace the sector shaft and the other goodies?

Is there something on the worm that I can measure to determine the amount of wear?

The bottom roller bearing was also seized.

I think the copper color you see is factory copper plating.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I think the copper color you see is factory copper plating.

I have a worm with the copper colour all over (little or no wear) but still decided to ditch it. I stand to be corrected on this but I believe it was the early ones that were copper coloured and that the angle for the tapered roller bearings top and bottom is different from the later ones and from the bearings we buy today. If my info is correct, you can't use one of those worms with a new, replacement bearing. I'm sure if I'm wrong (again), someone will chime in.

[RonC]

Replace the worm. You can buy the complete shaft with worm installed. I think MACs is the only one who makes the worm, shafts and sectors?

[Beauford]

Yeah, I got mine from MACs. $150

[Dick Deegan]

I think that Synchro909 may be correct. I do remember years ago reading something about the early worms that were incompatible with the new bearings. Thanks for reminding me about that.

I will order a new worm and shaft from Brattons.

BTW I have been really impressed with the service from Brattons. I have recently bought a number of parts from them with excellent delivery times and service.

Thanks for all the responses. This is a new ride for me and I will post some more pics later.

[Terry, NJ]

Snyder's Catalog 2017, Pg A-112 2tooth steering worm $65. BUT this is only the worm and they can be difficult to change.
Terry

[Beauford]

I bought mine in the beginning of my project when I did not know good vendors. The worm / shaft is good but I only go with Brattons now. X2 on their shipping. With me living in VA I get my order in 2 days.

[Growley bear]

Here is where the trouble begins. A friend had trouble adjusting a two tooth gear box. The drag link was not disconnected from the pitman arm and it was assumed that when the front wheels were straight that the worm and sector were centered. The sector depth was adjusted and when on the road play was still too much. Further checking revealed that when the wheels were straight that the worm and sector were not centered and the adjustment had been made off center. When this was corrected, an adjustable draglink was installed and the adjustment problem was solved. The reason for the offset was not addressed. I would think that something was bent/twisted somewhere.
Adjusting the sector/worm depth with the box installed is a piece of cake??UNLESS it was not properly adjusted before being installed in the vehicle; the internals are badly worn which will make a proper adjustment impossible.
Raise the vehicle to remove steering system drag and place the axel on some sturdy stands. Much patience and attention to detail is needed here especially if doing the job alone. Remove the drag link to separate the gearbox from the rest of the system. When getting to the sector/worm depth adjustment loosen the housing nuts just enough to remove some of the pressure from the spring washers to allow the housing to be moved with the eccentric. After you have made the adjustment and are satisfied with the results, tighten the four nuts starting with the eccentric. Then turn the steering wheel from extreme to extreme. If it turns both ways with no binding. you are quite fortunate as this is rare. If it does bind the eccentric can be backed off and rechecked. Always end the adjustment with a clockwise movement. If a centered no play adjustment occurs with a bind on either side of center, the gear box needs to be removed from the vehicle and the centralization adjustment can be made. One adjustment here affects the other, so there is a lot of back and forth between sector depth and centralization.
I would recommend that if removing the gearbox is necessary that the gearbox be opened up and inspected. I know that sounds involved and it can be; however time spent here will result in a gear box that will probably last many years.
After reinstalling the gearbox don't forget to add 600w oil. Fill it to the top of the threads then rock the steering wheel side to side and add more fluid. This will need to be done as many times as necessary to work out all the air.

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I have a worm with the copper colour all over (little or no wear) but still decided to ditch it. I stand to be corrected on this but I believe it was the early ones that were copper coloured and that the angle for the tapered roller bearings top and bottom is different from the later ones and from the bearings we buy today. If my info is correct, you can't use one of those worms with a new, replacement bearing. I'm sure if I'm wrong (again), someone will chime in.

Yes, there was a change in the bearing and the worm bearing surface area increasing it from .043 to .047. This is actually noted in the service bulletins I believe August of 1930. I'm not sure of the color of the gear as I always replace both gears. The current repors have that copper look but typically the original gears I remove do not. Maybe someone else has more info on this. You are best served by removing the steering gear and doing a full and thorough rebuild and setup on the bench. I use a pair of straight jaw vise grips tight on the sector shaft when doing the adjustments.

There were several posts above about adjustments. I would follow specifically what the service bulletins say, as that is exactly what I've done and it has served me well for countless steering gear rebuilds and adjustments. counter to what some have said... the offset can be done in the car but is of course more difficult than on the bench. With new gears and on the bench a slight.. I say that again slight) tight spot in the center steer position with full lube will wear in quickly. My '30 tudor box done back in the early 80's still serves me well and with a slight adjustment once is one of the easiest steering "A"'s I have driven.

I use the end tube along with a little RTV and also a little RTV on the mating gasket surfaces of the main housing to sector housing .

Rebuilding a steering box is not cheap.. don't try and do it on the cheap by replacing only one gear, not doing bearings, or saying you can't get the housing lower race out. Do it right or get an exchange from someone who does quality rebuilding. It's just that simple.
Honestly for the time it takes snyders or brattons really don't charge enough for labor on them with all the parts replaced.. and guys like me who do them don't get enough for them either.

FYI.. brattons propack really isn't much of a deal as it does NOT include worm and sector. I prefer to order my own individual parts.

Larry Shepard

[Dick Deegan]

Thanks Growley bear. I have the box out of the car and will replace most of the parts and do the centralization adjustment as well. The info about having the worm centered and the wheels straight ahead makes a lot of sense. I didn't check that before I took everything apart, but will once it is back together and in the car.

Dick

[Jacksonlll]

Replace the worm. All the wear is in the center and you cant adjust the slop out.

[dlshady]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I have a worm with the copper colour all over (little or no wear) but still decided to ditch it. I stand to be corrected on this but I believe it was the early ones that were copper coloured and that the angle for the tapered roller bearings top and bottom is different from the later ones and from the bearings we buy today. If my info is correct, you can't use one of those worms with a new, replacement bearing. I'm sure if I'm wrong (again), someone will chime in.

You're correct. The replacement bearings, races and worms available today are all compatible with the later style of original parts. If you have the early style worm then all of it has to be replaced with matching pieces. Below are some photos that I took last time I was building steering boxes.

Early style on the left, late style on the right.














ETA: I don't think the copper plating has any relationship to early or late, I think it was intended to help with either wear or friction. I've seen NOS worms and NOS sectors what have the copper plating on them.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by dlshady

You're correct. The replacement bearings, races and worms available today are all compatible with the later style of original parts. If you have the early style worm then all of it has to be replaced with matching pieces. Below are some photos that I took last time I was building steering boxes.















ETA: I don't think the copper plating has any relationship to early or late, I think it was intended to help with either wear or friction. I've seen NOS worms and NOS sectors what have the copper plating on them.

Thanks for the photos, a picture is worth a thousand words. Those are great photos. A few years ago when I rebuilt my first gearbox it had early parts and I discarded them. I have regretted that ever since. Thanks again.