Engine problem or normal?

[1stford]

I’m in Need some flat head experience. You can look back at any engine pictures on my restoration thread if there’s additional questions. So everything is up and running, seems to be running well EXCEPT I’ve got some anti freeze coming out the overflow when I drive. Doesn’t look like a ton I can just see it on the frame. It’s not running hot, oil looks great but oil pressure does seem low, it has since start up, about 5 at idol and 12 when driving. Is all that normal for a stock 8BA?

Thanks.

[AlexLohmann1]

Any blockage in the water jackets or something? Not sure how soon that overflow issue starts but no not typically "normal" soon after starting.

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[drolston]

Oil pressure is definitely not normal. My 59A had rods knocking and compression under 70 lb and still held 40 PSI at speed and 10 at idle. Check oil pressure with a mechanical gauge before you panic. If the pressure is real, I suspect the oil pressure relief valve is bad. Otherwise you would be hearing some expensive noises. Worry about the overflow later.

[Greg58]

Hows your radiator cap? My 50 would lose a little before I replaced the cap. Mine was the original so my guess is the spring had lost it tension.

[edhd58]

The antifreeze issue could be as simple as overfill if you have no catch can. Coolant will expand as it gets hot then reduce as it cools. Mine stays just about an inch over the tubes. Could also be cap is bad, mine does run a 4 lb cap now, but 0 pounds was normal when it was new. Let the coolant level itself before panic if its not running hot.

I have no suggestions about the oil pressure except it does sound low.

[1stford]

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My radiator cap is one I bought from Drake I believe.

[JSeery]

On the oil pressure, one simple test would be to disconnect the by-pass oil filter connection at the fitting at the rear of the engine and block the outlet with a plug. See if that makes any difference in the oil pressure. Also, how are you measuring the oil pressure, stock gauge or an aftermarket gauge? I would connect an aftermarket gauge if you don't already have one and see what it reads. It would be easy to connect it where the oil filter connection is currently.

Anyone remember the old rule of thumb, I think it was something like 10 psi for each 10 mph?

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by 1stford

I’m in Need some flat head experience. You can look back at any engine pictures on my restoration thread if there’s additional questions. So everything is up and running, seems to be running well EXCEPT I’ve got some anti freeze coming out the overflow when I drive. Doesn’t look like a ton I can just see it on the frame. It’s not running hot, oil looks great but oil pressure does seem low, it has since start up, about 5 at idol and 12 when driving. Is all that normal for a stock 8BA?

Thanks.

Oil pressure could be from light weight oil. Use 20/50 Castrol. You didn't say what year your car is. Early fords have the over flow tube from the top of the radiator. The back restriction of flow through the radiator due to the size and length of the radiator tubes cause the coolant to back up in the top tank and is pushed out the over flow. Skip Haney has a 4 lb valve that go's on the bottom end of the over flow tube which cures this, This valve must be flushed several times a year. On later radiators there is a washer like seat
down at the bottom of the filler neck. A WORKING 4 lb pressure cap will keep the coolant from being pushed out. BUT the bottom rubber seal on
the bottom of the pressure cap must hit and seal down at the bottom of
the filler neck. This has to hit at the bottom before the under side of the
top of the cap hits the top of the filler neck. If it's working you will feel the spring action of the bottom seal before the underside of the top of the cap hits the top of the filler neck. With Skips valve or a working pressure cap
fill the 22 quart system up to about 1" from the top of the filler neck. As long as the temperature never gets above 210 the coolant will stay filled
for over a year. I found most pressure caps don't hit the bottom and use
a red rubber gasket silicone to the bottom seat. Picture attached. G.M.

[Mart]

On a fresh build the water may be finding it's own level. See if it stops losing it after a while, but obviously monitor the level and make sure there is enough in there (covering the tops of the fins) and that you don't have a runaway overheating problem.

Re the oil, as said, check with a mechanical gauge before panicking, but do it soon because those numbers are very low. I'm not familiar with 8BAs but do they have the plug behind the cam gear? Not having that may give desparately oil pressure readings.

Mart.

[flatheadmurre]

I would check the oilpump...if the relief valve is stuck open or the spring is bad you get that kind of issues.
Even with a thin oil i expect to see a bigger raise in pressure at increased rpm.
And already mentioned use a mechanical gauge first.

[Talkwrench]

That would be 10lbs per 1000 RPM , which would be fine for a flathead.. If its a new build you have something wrong I'd say..

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

That would be 10lbs per 1000 RPM ..

Thanks Talkwrench, I didn't think per mph sounds right!

[Tinker]

I don't know much about the 8bas, but if it's running a electric fuel pump and the oil hole isn't blocked would that have any effect? Just throwing stuff out.

Also most earlier coolant setups puke a little water before finding its level if overfilled. If your running cool then your cool I'd say. Wait and see.

[tubman]

C'mon, you guys. He said "12 when driving". I doubt that he does much driving at that RPM and below. This figure seriously violates the "10 lbs per 1000 RPM" rule everyone likes to quote. I personally think that rule should not apply to an engine in reasonable shape. Neither did the Ford engineers, who designed the relief valve to open at 57 psi. There is a serious problem with the gauge or the engine.

[Tinker]

Someone used to say anything above 0 is better then not. Different time.

Might need some bearing work. but a straight 30w will get ya up around 25-35ish. Probably run for yrs that way...

But ya get a different gauge on it.





.

[petehoovie]

This, from Ron Bishop's book "Rebuilding The Famous Ford Flathead" - Page 51 - "Ford used 40 non-detergent oil (Summer) in all of the flathead motors. The flathead oil system ran between 10-15 pounds of pressure, but is not considered a pressurized system by today's standards."

[tubman]

Please remember, we're talking an 8BA here. Just because you read it in a book, doesn't make it correct.

[flatheadmurre]

Even badly worn engines with zero pressure at idle usually goes higher then 12 when rpm is increased...
A little history on the engine perhaps what has been done to it ?

[JWL]

I agree with all the others----if the readings are accurate the oil pressure is wayyyyy too low. Need to find that problem first. Follow JSeery instructions if they apply to your system.

If the radiator cap is a pressure regulator there should not be puking unless the rad. is overfilled.

[Capt Kirk]

I have a similar oil pressure situation on my very low mile 59AB. I bought a new sender when the car was restored and am using the original gauge. Like you, I posted my low oil pressure concern here and a point was brought up that the sender I purchased may not be correctly matched to the original gauge...if I remember correctly, there's a 50psi and an 80 psi sender. I found the original sender and will swap it once I get the car out for the season. I don't have a mechanical gauge but could add one temporarily to compare readings. Just a thought.

[Greg58]

What does the engine sound like when running? If it doesn't rattle or knock I would think its a gauge or sending unit problem.

[1stford]

Originally Posted by Greg58

What does the engine sound like when running? If it doesn't rattle or knock I would think its a gauge or sending unit problem.

It sounds really great. I’m going to check with a mechanical gauge.

[1stford]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Even badly worn engines with zero pressure at idle usually goes higher then 12 when rpm is increased...
A little history on the engine perhaps what has been done to it ?

Motor was rebuilt at reputable engine shop. It got a whole makeover with new parts. Runs great and not looking at oil pressure allmwould seem perfect. The gauge is a factory gauge that was just restored.

[34billct]

I had a engine re built by a shop that has/had a good reputation and i put the engine in. At first the oil pressure seemed good but after a few day's it drooped off. So out it came. Sent it off to another shop and they found that a gasket had been installed on the oil pump that isn't required and it blew out.

[flatjack9]

There is a thin paper gasket used on the oil pump cover.

[Ol' Ron]

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y might be a Mellings pump?? I've had trouble with them.

[34billct]

The engine i refer to is a 34 that dos not use a gasket on the oil pump.

[1stford]

Going back through rereading this and other threads I came across torque specs and threads in this topic. I retorqued my heads at 65-70 as the manual says but reading I get opinions all over the place. Could 70lbs be any of my problem with anti freeze leaking out the overflow due to exhaust leaking or am I overthinking this?

[flatjack9]

I never torque more that 55 lb. Usually go 50 lb. 70 is definetly too much, but I don't see how it could be causing your problem.

[1stford]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I never torque more that 55 lb. Usually go 50 lb. 70 is definetly too much, but I don't see how it could be causing your problem.

Maybe a dumb question, probably is, what makes 70 to much if that’s what the torque specs call for? Should the 70 be backed off?

[flatjack9]

Where did you read that? 70 is the maximum torque rating for a 7/16-13 grade 8 fastener, but that may overstress the threads in the block.

[1stford]

I believe those are the specs on Mac’s website. As I think more about it I actually did 65 on them.

[Flatout]

The oil line from the block to the filter should have a restriction to limit oil flow and loss of oil pressure. I've found that about .060" diameter hole will be enough flow for the filter without loosing too much pressure to the engine's oiling system.

[1stford]

Wanted to circle back on this topic. I took the heads off and there appears to be no cracks and head gasket was good. Any other ideas on why anti freeze would be coming out the overflow?

On the oil pressure I put on mechanical gauge. On start up it idols at about 20lbs and then 40 at higher RPM. Seems to drop to about 10lbs after idol
For a bit.

[Greg58]

Originally Posted by edhd58

The antifreeze issue could be as simple as overfill if you have no catch can. Coolant will expand as it gets hot then reduce as it cools. Mine stays just about an inch over the tubes. Could also be cap is bad, mine does run a 4 lb cap now, but 0 pounds was normal when it was new. Let the coolant level itself before panic if its not running hot.

I have no suggestions about the oil pressure except it does sound low.

This sounds like good advice.

[tubman]

Those oil pressure numbers are not up to spec for a freshly rebuilt 8BA. In my experience, it should idle around 25-35 psi and run at over 50, hot or cold. Do you know what kind of oil pump was installed? I tried to save a few bucks on my latest build and installed a standard Speedway Motors oil pump. I think it is causing me problems with this engine.

The oil pressure on this engine is not where I expect it to be. It idles cold at 20, but goes right up to over 50 when I rev it up. At hot idle, it drops to 10 psi. I know a lot of you guys are OK with that and quote the old "10 lbs per 1000 rpm" saw, but in my opinion, this is not correct for a fresh rebuild. I have a correct tested Ford pump I am going to install in the next couple of days. I expect it to make a difference and bring my oil pressure back to where it should be. The way the oil pressure reacts to engine speed, I expect the spring is too "soft" on the low end and opens partially at low RPM. When engine speed comes up, the additional volume produced by the pump can't go through the partially open relief and the pressure increases. I will post what I find when I have the Ford pump installed.

Upon re-reading your last post. it looks like you are experiencing oil pressure numbers that are very similar to mine. Did you, perchance, have a Speedway oil pump installed?

[Tinker]

Torquing to 70 is way to much. Maybe 60 with iron heads. and then in cycles.

Some regular guy flathead truths...

Yep you can over fill a radiator on a "stock old ford". It has a level it likes, not you.

Never trust an old gauge. Or a new one... multiply sources or a temp gun. Never trust a gauge

Condensers can be bad right out the box.

Get your coil rebuilt.

6 volt works great, you dont need 12 volts.

If you think it's a fuel problem its probably electrical

don't run eth fuel

10w-30w is fine

grounds, light doesn't work... it's probably a ground issue

[1stford]

Just an update on my current situation. I pulled the heads and the block is cracked. Defiantly not he news I was looking for.

[Ol' Ron]

I torque ALL my heads to 45/50 lbs, thru three heat cycles. Been doing this for over 50 years, and there's a reason for this: The block has rarring thickness of and will distort with over torquing. 45 ft lbs is more clamping force than a Chrysler Hemi

[Greg58]

Sorry to hear the block is cracked, I don't which way you plan to go with it but a good machine shop can repair just about anything.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by 1stford

Just an update on my current situation. I pulled the heads and the block is cracked. Defiantly not he news I was looking for.

Where is the crack, can you post a photo?

[1stford]

Middle top of driver side.

[Mart]

While not ideal, a crack in that location (and other stud to water jacket) locations are not considered job stoppers.

Mart.

[tubman]

Although I have never seem a crack there (my "part number" cracks are always in their usual location), I agree with "Mart" that that particular crack is not a "game-stopper". While I'm no expert, I wonder if the installation of a quality thread insert ("Keen-Sert". "EZ-Lok", or some such)may not be a good idea.

[1stford]

Maybe I could get more specifics on this. I’m ready to pull it and trash the block because I thought it was no good do to this issue. I’m getting exhauste gas into the cooling system, motor is in truck and didn’t think I had other options?

[Mart]

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Maybe it is a job stopper, then, do you think the crack goes all the way into the exhaust port? It's hard to offer definitive advice via the computer without seeing the parts first hand and discussing with the person with the problem. I wonder if it would be worth rigging up for a pressure test??

The post above is the first mention of exhaust in the coolant.

Mart.

[flatheadmurre]

Under the deck the material is round and then becomes the exhaust runner.
Not to uncommon that deck and exhaust splits when it cracks in the thin part around the stud...and exhaust is coming up into the coolant. That can be fixed with a longer stud or thread insert.
If the cracks showing goes straight all the way down into the exhaust it´s more of a challenge.

[flatjack9]

I don't know if I would rely on the exhaust gas test. I had a friend who had a positive test. He removed the engine and tore it down to build a new block. I pressure tested the old block for him and found no problem. I rebuilt the engine and it has been running for 2 years with no problems.

[1stford]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I don't know if I would rely on the exhaust gas test. I had a friend who had a positive test. He removed the engine and tore it down to build a new block. I pressure tested the old block for him and found no problem. I rebuilt the engine and it has been running for 2 years with no problems.

I know this a question that really can’t be answered but the above message causes me to worry about pulling the motor. I’m at a point now where I’m ready to pull it out and go through it. Before I do has anyone had any experience like I listed above when they were running no thermostats? Didn’t know if not haveing them in, and there being no restrictions would cause guild to overflow when I give it gas at idol?

[FlatheadTed]

I don't think the little coolant lose is a issue ,they do drop a little as has been said you should be focusing on if its over heating or not ,its not wise to pull a motor to bits with out doing some testing, you put a catch can on the tube and see how much you get .A thermostat can add to your problems not nessarly help .The oil pressure I have a simler problem on a merc block, 5 at idal 15 at revs , so Manual gauge goes on next ,Ted