Engine melt down

[tbirdtbird]

"About sleeves- many large industrial engines are manufactured new with sleeves. Some 'wet', some 'dry'. I guess they all overheat."

and as you know such engines (Caterpiller, etc) have cooling systems very much more sophisticated than a Model A

I am curious how the coefficient of expansion of steel liners compares to cast iron

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"About sleeves- many large industrial engines are manufactured new with sleeves. Some 'wet', some 'dry'. I guess they all overheat."

and as you know such engines (Caterpiller, etc) have cooling systems very much more sophisticated than a Model A

I am curious how the coefficient of expansion of steel liners compares to cast iron

Explain then, the n series ford tractors which all have sleeves from the factory and they don't overheat. These engines work much harder than a Model A/T/B and work fine even being almost like a T/A/B engine, with virtually the same cooling system.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"About sleeves- many large industrial engines are manufactured new with sleeves. Some 'wet', some 'dry'. I guess they all overheat."

and as you know such engines (Caterpiller, etc) have cooling systems very much more sophisticated than a Model A

I am curious how the coefficient of expansion of steel liners compares to cast iron

Explain then, the n series ford tractors which all have sleeves from the factory and they don't overheat. These engines work much harder than a Model A/T/B and work fine even being almost like a T/A/B engine. Besides that, diesel engines (caterpiller, detroit, cummins, international) just naturally run cooler than gasoline engines.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

. . . I am curious how the coefficient of expansion of steel liners compares to cast iron

Here are some expansion coefficients.
Cast gray iron...6.1 x 10-6 in/in oF
Mild Steel.........6.7 x 10-6 in/in oF

[Randall]

once I had a piston Gaul,thought not enough clearance,turn out piston pin to tight and caused it to Gaul

[Halswell]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I saw the problem as soon as I saw the photo of the offending seized piston. It has those dreadful oil control rings on it. You should never, never, never fit oil control rings on a new bore. Especially in a Model A . They are for old worn bores when re ringing. I note that plain cast iron oil rings as Henry would have used do not seem to be available from your suppliers these days. Model A's are not oil burners even when worn. In fact I think they lack cylinder lubrication as ring seizure is not uncommon. Ive had it happen to me especially when pushing too hard a new engine which is still a bit on the tight side. Happy Motoring.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Halswell

I saw the problem as soon as I saw the photo of the offending seized piston. It has those dreadful oil control rings on it. You should never, never, never fit oil control rings on a new bore. Especially in a Model A . They are for old worn bores when re ringing. I note that plain cast iron oil rings as Henry would have used do not seem to be available from your suppliers these days. Model A's are not oil burners even when worn. In fact I think they lack cylinder lubrication as ring seizure is not uncommon. Ive had it happen to me especially when pushing too hard a new engine which is still a bit on the tight side. Happy Motoring.

This is the first time I ever heard about not using oil rings, except for a two stoke engine.

After the engine is broke in, like a couple thousand miles, should I then remove the pistons and install the oil rings?

[RonC]

Bob if your valve was bent for whatever reason and had a large open gap wouldn't it allow hot exhaust gases from the other cylinders to enter on the intake stroke? I would think sucking in hot exhaust gases on every intake would overheat just the one cylinder. I think it's unlikely you not only bent your valve but also had an ill fitted piston.

[Dodge]

To answer one of the questions above about when piston slap starts. With cast aluminum
pistons like we run in our Model A's piston slap seems to show up at about .004.
But not all pistons are created equal. The piston material and design determine to some
degree what the clearance should be. The .0035 number is very safe and a good one to
use. Forged pistons made with modern materials should go closer to .006 in a Model A.
In the old days .008 to .010 was the norm for a forged piston.
I have seen a lot of stuck Model A and T pistons over the years, its better to have them
a little loose than a little to tight.

[Halswell]

Sorry Tom but you have missunderstood me. Perhaps I did not explain very clearly. For that I appologise. What I was trying to say is that there are different types of oil ring. 1) Plain cast iron oil ring. Made of cast iron like the two top or compression rings but with slots spaced arround it. This is the type of oil ring your Model A would have left the factory with and this is the type of oil ring you should always use when you rebore an engine on the new bore.
2). Oil control ring which are made up of several components. Usually a scraper or cord ring top and bottom a sort of spring ring at the back and in the front to run on the bore a w shaped ring of steel or similar alloy. All this is placed into the oil ring grove. It is for old worn cylinders that you are re ringing and the idea is to restrict the flow of oil to the top rings because the cylinder is worn. Thus stopping the engine from burning oil or smoking.
I note that all the suppliers seem to only supply the oil controll type these days and I was wondering if this a factor in causing the ring and piston seizures on the fairly fresh engines that I have been reading about on the forum.
-----------------------------
Dont wory it takes 3 beers to understand a KIWI.

[Tom Wesenberg]

OK, now I understand what you meant. I refer to them as one piece oil ring vs. 3 piece oil ring, although they may have an inner expander ring, which ups the piece count to 2 and 4.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Dodge

To answer one of the questions above about when piston slap starts. With cast aluminum
pistons like we run in our Model A's piston slap seems to show up at about .004.
But not all pistons are created equal. The piston material and design determine to some
degree what the clearance should be. The .0035 number is very safe and a good one to
use. Forged pistons made with modern materials should go closer to .006 in a Model A.
In the old days .008 to .010 was the norm for a forged piston.
I have seen a lot of stuck Model A and T pistons over the years, its better to have them
a little loose than a little to tight.

I mostly agree with what you are saying. When cylinders are bored to one hundred and twenty five thousants oversize that takes the bore to four inches. in such cases when cast solid skirt pistons are used I would allow .004 clearance . Just my thoughts.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Explain then, the n series ford tractors which all have sleeves from the factory and they don't overheat. These engines work much harder than a Model A/T/B and work fine even being almost like a T/A/B engine. Besides that, diesel engines (caterpiller, detroit, cummins, international) just naturally run cooler than gasoline engines.

The only similarity between the N series tractor and early Ford car and truck N series engines compared to the model A engine is the fact that they both use updraft carburetors. Otherwise the N series engines are smaller bore, have an improved cooling system and basically are more like half of a flathead V8 engine.

Wet sleeved engines are totally different with no comparison with a dry sleeve engine.

In the first place I didn't say that sleeved engines caused overheating . I said that sleeved engines would run hotter because the sleeve isn't part of the actual block. The gap, how ever small between the block and the sleeve in a dry sleeve engine can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the actual cylinder block. This isn't rocket science but more like 9th grade science. You don't necessarily have to be a professional engine builder to know and understand this fact. Dry sleeved cylinder temps will run higher but not necessarily overheat. Sleeved cylinders can be a good thing to save a numbers matching engine or an engine with otherwise good babbit , but are generally avoided if at all possible . Its pretty clear that some engine builders like the higher price that they get when they get to sleeve all of the cylinders back to standard. Most with engines where all 4 cylinders have been sleeved back to standard know that they run higher temps. If everything such as cooling system, piston clearance and timing are just right and proper use of the spark is followed a person can get by with an engine with all of the cylinders sleeved back to standard. This was just a real thought of some of the things that can cause higher engine temps. Every little thing counts , several things combined and the effects of overheating increase.

I do have experience with sleeved cylinders. I have an engine with number 3 and 4 cylinders sleeved and it does run hotter. It doesn't always over heat but run hotter than I liked. Thats why I retired it to the back corner of my shop and replaced it. Truth be known, I'll just bet that most engine builders avoid engines that have been sleeved when they buy cores.

[tbirdtbird]

Purdy, my friend, I sure hope y'all got your bullet-proof vest on over there!!! I haven't had a chance to take mine off yet!

"Every little thing counts"

ya think?

[DJ S]

I forgot to ask J&M's opinion on sleeving Model a engines when I visited their shop a few weeks ago.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Purdy, my friend, I sure hope y'all got your bullet-proof vest on over there!!! I haven't had a chance to take mine off yet!

"Every little thing counts"

ya think?

Dave, I missed a lot of the fireworks on this thred thursday the 13th because my phone line got accidently cut around 11am and I couldn't get back on line untill the following monday. I wasn't going to bring it back up. There seems to be three people that always like to try and discredit me and call names. I don't think that Ryan and Cobb are going to allow that sort of thing here anymore. Being as this thread came back up, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily saying that resleeving a cylinder would cause overheating. I was just adding to the list of things that can contribute to higher temps and even overheating .Yes, every little thing counts and dry sleeves CAN NOT transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the actual engine block can. I wasn't refering to Bob Johnsons engine or anybody in particular. Just talking common sense model A with no harm meant in any way.

I don't rebuild engines as a profession but I have worked on cars and engines most of my life. I have personally built all of my model A's and that includes every nut and bolt. I don't need to send my engines out. I'm just a common man and enjoy sharing my lifetime of model A experience . I'm glad that I don't need money bad enough that I would resort to the flaming and name calling that these three individuals have done to me. The way that I see it is that they are just showing their true character or the lack there of !!!

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by DJ S

I forgot to ask J&M's opinion on sleeving Model a engines when I visited their shop a few weeks ago.

Read post #34 . They like to resleeve engines and really don't understand how a resleeved cylinder can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the original cylinder block . He wasn't calling names this time though .

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Read post #34 . They like to resleeve engines and really don't understand how a resleeved cylinder can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the original cylinder block . He wasn't calling names this time though .

DJS quote:I forgot to ask J&M's opinion on sleeving Model a engines when I visited their shop a few weeks ago

DJ S we sleeve the blocks when needed and have an interference fit.
They do have heat transfer unlike the Unknowing poster above who has no machine shop experience. Sleeves are made of same cast iron material.

I have pictures posted showing that we leave a step for the sleeves to secure against Then sleeves installed and finally resurfaced and rebored ready for honing.

http://www.jandm-machine.com/

[Purdy Swoft]

J&M How do you know what experience that I have ???

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

J&M How do you know what experience that I have ???

Purdy: You posted it in this same forum:
I don't rebuild engines as a profession but I have worked on cars and engines most of my life. I have personally built all of my model A's and that includes every nut and bolt. I don't need to send my engines out.

It can't be any clearer and I am not putting words in your mouth.
You have professed to the world and this chat room that you're NOT an engine rebuilder therefore you are Not an expert on engine rebuilding.
You cannot give comment on sleeving whereas I cannot give comments on body work or paint.

Enough said.