I'd like to start a new thread on the components used in building a flathad

[Ol' Ron]

Ther are allot of members here on the barn with the knowledge of what not to do, as well as helping make a choice in the use of some components as well as the machine work necessary depending on the application on the engine. Alg with the reasons why!! I'm doing this because I see allot of flatheads on the internet built by well meaning people that have mad some poor choices. I also have a personal reason. For the past two months I've had a problem with Hhigh Blood pressure, been up in the VA a few times, and they seem to have it under control, but at 87, I just thought I can help along with others here on the Barn.
Gramps

[Scotty's 52 F3]

I'm listening. I have an 8RT to build for my F3 hopefully soon. I always appreciate posts from the experts like yourself. Looking forward to this thread. Thanks in advance.

[OldGold360]

Thanks Ron. I look forward to the info you plan to share. Thank you!

[Brian]

Good idea.
Camshafts; many people make the mistake of overcamming their engine. For a street driven engine that will predominantly be cruising at say 60 MPH, ideally you want the engine developing maximum torque at those revs, then it is running most efficiently, giving best fuel consumption. No use having a cam that is nowhere near it's 'powerband'. Do some arithmetic, calculate the RPM's of the engine at your chosen speed, factoring in diff ratio and rear tire diameter, and select a camshaft that is designed to give power at those revs. Do not choose a cam simply because it sounds good whilst idling.

[Ziggster]

I think that is a great idea. I created a spreadsheet when first started mine listing "all" the components I needed to purchase, reuse or fabricate. It included suppliers, their P/N's and costs. It hasn't been updated in a while, but I'm willing to share it, the only issue it would likely be too big to share using pictures, so I would need to share the actual file.

[Ziggster]

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I forgot to mention, mine is a C59A block.

[Ol' Ron]

I suppose we should hae some ground rules, I'm referring to "Street engines". I consider the engine should be well tuned for power and economy, and many of these engines are running rich, which will cause the rings to fail over time. I do like a beautiful well dressed engine. The Flathead offers a great platform for aesthetics. Unfortunately this can cost a great deal of money. What are your thoughts on intakes??

[Ziggster]

At the moment my engine is completely stock except for the Isky 1007B cam and 0.060” over with a helmet distributor.

[Grease348]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I suppose we should hae some ground rules, I'm referring to "Street engines". I consider the engine should be well tuned for power and economy, and many of these engines are running rich, which will cause the rings to fail over time. I do like a beautiful well dressed engine. The Flathead offers a great platform for aesthetics. Unfortunately this can cost a great deal of money. What are your thoughts on intakes??

I’m gathering parts for my 8ba right now. I’m going with a merc aluminum intake with a Rochester two barrel


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[richard crow]

the best running flat head is a stock one

[alanwoodieman]

have helped build a few and have built a few myself, learned some do's and some don'ts along the way. a few aw sh--, never had a complete failure but know of a couple that had to be completely rebuilt. willing to share my thoughts if you guys want me to. no way near as good as Old Ron, but I would bet he could tell us of a few!!

[hop up]

Awesome thanks you

[Ol' Ron]

Yes a stock flathead is a very good running engine, however, some want alittle more from it. I like the 2GC upgrade, however you need to bore the intake ports under the carb to match the throttle bores. Just bell mouthing won't do much. Also the stock distributor won't work with this setup. The best distributor up grade is the converted GM unit.. But the crab will work just fine in the earlier blocks.
A.060" bore will give you 248ci and a 1/2 point increase in CR. By angle milling the head yo can add another point and with the 2GC carb allot of torque, and much better fuel mileage.
I'd like a survey her what's the price for boring the block and fitting the pistons. Also milling the heads in your area,.

[19Fordy]

Ron, Thank you for your willingness to share your many years of skill and knowledge. A good running engine close to stock with perhaps a few upgrades that don't turn it into a money pit "race horse" engine would be nice . For instance, the 239 8BA engine in the photo below is internally stock except for the 4 bbl set up and adjustable lifters. The "bling" cost $$ so that's not required in your build engine idea.

[flatford8]

I just stripped a Mercury block that tested good. My plan is a “clean up” over bore. It has an 8CM cam and will have adjustable lifters, Mercury intake with a 2GC. EAB heads with a tight piston- head clearance. No shiney sh!t. It’s going in a stock ‘50 Fordor. My ‘51 has a “Walt- built” 276, but I haven’t got it on the road yet...... Mark

[Grease348]

Could I get some more information on the angle milling on the heads? Like angles ect. I run a Bridgeport at my work. I might be able to squeeze a job like that in on a Saturday. Steve


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[JM 35 Sedan]

Great idea Ron. I see posts on Facebook, and here as well, where young folks (and some old) are building their first Flathead engine, and asking questions about how they should do the build. In many cases they are getting the wrong information....which may lead them down the road of disapointment, and who knows where from there.
I'll be following this thread with great interest.....

[tubman]

I am also partial to a 2GC on a Mercury manifold. However, as Ron has said it is important to bore it to match the 2GC throttle bores. I use a scrap 2GC base as a guide and a tool called a "Rota-Broach" to do this in my drill press. I have done it several times with great success, on both cast iron and aluminum manifolds.

Here's a link to a post I made on the H.A.M.B. with more detail : https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-13738492.

[AnthonyG]

Thx Ron, I’ve drawn on ur great knowledge more than a few time & ur always right on the mark! I recently replaced Rods, rings & pistons on an 8BA. I think Ron’s idea is to help Ppl understand some of the options & potential costs of components to build / rebuild their Flatty’s. The I’ll Probly get criticism but that’s cool. I try to take all in the right spirit & learn! So my engine is an 8BA .060 over w a Merc Crank in good shape. I had 4 cracked Pistons & I went w all new Ross Forged Domed Pistons & rings approx $800, my intake is a Offy 4brl approx $400 w a 600 cfm 1403 Edelbrock approx $350. Offy heads approx $1000. If I had it to do over I’d get Edelbrock heads, better & cheaper approx $700. Hope it was informative!

[Ol' Ron]

I don't recomend Forged pistons for a street engine, they require larger piston to wall clearance, are expensive and . WHY??? Egge makes very fine pistons and 3 ring pistons for the 3 5/16 stylr. thes can be ruN with .002' Clearance. prolonging ring life. And they are expensive. However, I do use them in the hi performance engines. Save money and have a better street engine.
Gramps
I didn't want this thread to be just me telling Youse guys what to do, there are many others here that can offer their suggestions as well.

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Yes a stock flathead is a very good running engine, however, some want alittle more from it. I like the 2GC upgrade, however you need to bore the intake ports under the carb to match the throttle bores. Just bell mouthing won't do much. Also the stock distributor won't work with this setup. The best distributor up grade is the converted GM unit.. But the crab will work just fine in the earlier blocks.
A.060" bore will give you 248ci and a 1/2 point increase in CR. By angle milling the head yo can add another point and with the 2GC carb allot of torque, and much better fuel mileage.
I'd like a survey her what's the price for boring the block and fitting the pistons. Also milling the heads in your area,.

Machine shop cost for my assembled short block was CAN$2,417.48. I provided all the parts. Engine was delivered disassembled and was cleaned, bored 0.020” over the existing 0.040” previous re-bore/rebuild. Block was pressure tested, decked (not sure how much, same for the factory cast iron heads). I think he said he just “skimmed” over the heads. One or two head bolt threads were repaired. Cost included crank regrind and shipping costs to Montreal where they did the regrind. I think that alone was about $300.00. Curious to see what equivalent cost in USA is for same work.

[Grease348]

As I mentioned I’m working on a 8ba. I’ll be boring the block .030 to .060 stock stroke. What would be a good cam selection? I’m thinking of putting this in a 27 coupe.


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[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Grease348

Could I get some more information on the angle milling on the heads? Like angles ect. I run a Bridgeport at my work. I might be able to squeeze a job like that in on a Saturday. Steve


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I'd like info on angle milling also. How much angle? What about the head bolt holes? Do you start from the top of the head or from the bottom side? I imagine you could relocate the head a little, depending on how you set it up in the mill.

[hop up]

I would love to hear more on the milling of the heads as well and have a Bridgeport and or surface grinder that can do it. Plus I have a set of heads that have been repaired . Ron did you make a jig to do this or just shim the head to get her flat.

[Frank Miller]

Think of building a flathead like baking a cake. You know you want a cake but you need to determine what kind of cake you want and then you figure out the ingredients.
Do you want you motor to look stock?
Are you going to drive it a distance or just show it off at the cruise nights?
Do you have a budget or unlimited funds?
When I see someone say, "I want a cam with a nice lope" to me they're basically saying, I want a cam that only works in an RPM range I'll never see.

If you're running 12 volts your options open up for tuning purposes in that you can add O2 sensors and get some real feedback as to what your engine is doing. Also fuel injection but that may be a little elaborate.
Ron did some extensive testing in getting a flathead to turn in some good economy numbers as well as more power. I think it was done with rich in Florida.

[Ol' Ron]

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Why angle mill a cylinder head??To raise the compression, right. So that means we want to remove most of the metal from the combustion chamber. On the machine at the local rebuilders the head, block is placed on a flat surface and clamped in place. It then rides over a 12" diameter r cutter which removes the material. When clamping the head to the fixture we place shims under the side we want to remove the LEASST amt of material with two .060" shims we're ready to cut the head thus removing .060" over the combustion chamber and very little over the dome in the head. Now we take an extra .010" off the head to make sure everything is flat.
On an 8BA head we reduced the chamber volume from 72cc to 66 cc or about the same as a 65 cc Edelbrock head. Checking the clearance for the valves I found that the >350" lift would clear. Now for the bolts. I don't think the angle has changed enough to consider re drilling the holes. I do believe the spot facing the boss on the head to be important. Using a Dremel tool to clearance the piston to head clearance. The shop charges 150 to mill the heads

[19Fordy]

Wow! It's easy to see how one modification leads to lots of dough being spent as other changes usually follow.

[Grease348]

Thank you Ron. Now I got my work cut out for me.....Steve


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[3739ford]

Mercury block cleaned, tested, bored 3 5/16, cam bearings installed.........$340.00
Mercury crankshaft polished..........$40.00
8BA rods checked for roundness......$40.00
Mill EAB heads to .045" clearance.....$80.00
Machine shop milled Mercury intake for 2GC $20.00
EAB used camshaft checked and OK......$00.00
100 trips by machine shop just to talk with owner......$priceless

[clo]

I’m building a performance Flathead. It’s a 59L block.
Stroke= Eagle forged 4 1/4 crank. I like eagle rather than scat. Scat crank is cast.
Rods= Eagle
Pistons = Ross 3 5/16 with grant file to fit mm ring pack for less drag.
Heads = Baron Tattersfield. There thick and hold a extra gallon of water which is big in keeping temperature down in a Flathead. The stroker kit was about 2,100$ and the heads about 1,800.

[JWL]

I covered the subject of angle milling in my book. There is more to it than simply shimming the head before face milling. The bolt holes need to be reamed to be perpendicular to the new face and the washer counterbores should be re-cut. Usually some degree of compromise is involved unless the entire chamber is being custom machined. The best condition to aim for is to minimize clearance at the outer edge of the piston without significantly altering the transfer area. The match between piston dome and head dome cut radius will be the starting point for determining what can be done.

[alanwoodieman]

vat block $50.00
bore and hone to fit pistons $265.00
deck block $150.00
grind crank $125.00
Size Rods $15.00 each
surface fly wheel $35.00 I do my own pressure test, send the block to shop with most of the crud gone, so I get back a cleaner block. remember to remove "ALL" oil gallery plugs--3 or 4 depending on block, rod out galleries with wire brush before and after vatting block. A block that set in a shop had a mudd dauber build a nest in one of the ports for filter/gauge sender, new one on me!

[alanwoodieman]

40 block with little oil pressure, upon inspection found this. Front gallery plug left out. The old school builder had left this out probably 20 years ago. found one in my stash to put in

[Ol' Ron]

I'm glad to see John jump in, The ussue of angle milling a cylinder head can get very complicated, and yea there is more too it. I just brought it up to offer a cheaper way to get high compression.
I have many photos of most of this machine work, and i'd like to ilistrate some of it, but my stupid factor is very high right now, so I'll probably have a grand sn help me with it.
There is another problem with the heads I haven't brought up and that is clearancing the valves to head. This is done in a fixture on an angle table, Much easier and you don't have to tram in the Bridgeport when your done.
I hate that, Gramps

PS another thing, If you don't have JWL's book, your loosing allot of money building an engine.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by JWL

I covered the subject of angle milling in my book. There is more to it than simply shimming the head before face milling. The bolt holes need to be reamed to be perpendicular to the new face and the washer counterbores should be re-cut. Usually some degree of compromise is involved unless the entire chamber is being custom machined. The best condition to aim for is to minimize clearance at the outer edge of the piston without significantly altering the transfer area. The match between piston dome and head dome cut radius will be the starting point for determining what can be done.

For your average enthusiast doing their own engine. Is the juice worth the squeeze. I sure wouldn’t think so. Thanks. Cheers. Tony

[Scotty's 52 F3]

I'm planning my build so THANK YOU to all those contributing.

Glad to see some machine shop pricing as well. I already spent a LOT of time cleaning the crud out of my two blocks. Look like new inside. Crack checked and pressure checked.

One block has a lot of pitting on the deck surface. What is the max allowed to surface the decks?

[Ol' Ron]

The deck is quit thin in places, so I wouldn't take too much off. Check the fire ring around each combustion chamber for ware or deep scratches. That will deterring the amount to mill off. I think .010 would be allot. I usually take only a few thou off (.002/3) for a look see.
Gramps

[Ol' Ron]

Camshafts next??? What ya runnin??

[alanwoodieman]

77b , watch out for regrinds on stock cams, the base circle can get pretty small. of course adjustable lifters with hole drilled low on the lifter bore to aid in adjusting lifters

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by alanwoodieman

77b , watch out for regrinds on stock cams, the base circle can get pretty small. of course adjustable lifters with hole drilled low on the lifter bore to aid in adjusting lifters

What are you calling a “small number base circle”
Just curious. Thanks. Tony.

[hop up]

Ron or JWL what book is it as I thought I had them all

[flatjack9]

"Flathead Facts"

[Ol' Ron]

"Small Base circle's" is the nemeses of adjustable lifters. The adjustable lifter was designed to eliminate the need to grind the valve sten after a valve job. Back in the Day they were $12.50 a set, and saved allot of time. When the "High lift" cams came along, so did the extended lift lifter. Which was just a longer screw. Today, these are not available so the lifters have to be extended to far out to keep the adjustment for very long. Today I use the chevy 1 1/3 exhaust valve which has a .060" longer stem to solve this problem.


Should be 1 1/2 valve, eyesight getting worse??

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by tubman

I am also partial to a 2GC on a Mercury manifold.

Excellent thread boys, lots of great ideas.

I am in the process of improving my 239 C1BA with EAB heads engine and for now just wanting to go with the "bolt on" improvements. I think I will keep the EAB heads and just have them milled a little.

Could someone here post a picture of the Mercury intake? What makes it different from the Ford? I googled it but couldn't find anything definitive from a reliable source. Maybe a pic of the small base 2GC also....pls and thx

Thanks!

[flatjack9]

The Mercury manifold has a 4 bolt carb base.

[coup34]

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God Bless!!!!!!

[Kilohertz]

Some things I am contemplating right now...and have collected so far.

An Offy 4 bbl intake
Carter WCFB carb, mine is from a Caddy with a 365 cu" engine so it may be a bit "big" but it bolts right on the intake without adapters.

I have a couple of 4GCs on the way here but they are the early 60's variety and would need an adapter plate to work with the Offy intake.

Also watching for a used Holley 390CFM carb but they are rare here, and new is too pricey for me.

Already have modified and installed a GM points distributor so I am ready for whatever carb combo I decide to use.

But now with the new twist, I may start looking for a Merc manifold and 2GC carb.

Cheers

[Ol' Ron]

measure, measure, measurer. How much are you going to mill the heads?? Guess work can wast allot of money, or destroy an engine. But if you measure the clearance you have noe and sutract the amount you want. BINGO!!!Winner
Gramps

[Kilohertz]

Oh yes, I will measure x 3 when I get to that point. I'm not tearing it apart until I have all the parts ready to go and a solid plan in place. There are still 643 things I need to do on the truck and the engine is just one of them. For now she runs well and that makes me happy. I still don't have brakes, steering column, brake pedal, seats, driveshaft etc.... It will probably be summer before I will have it moving around under it's own power. If I take my time and keep my eyes open I should be able to find most of the engine parts I want/need at a reasonable cost.

Following this thread with great interest.

Cheers

[Straightpipes]

I have a very nice running 8BA engine with attached 39 transmission. It is fairly stock with a Merc cam. .060 over. EAB heads. I am thinking of putting it in a 34 truck. I don't want to deal with the fan and crossmember problems. I am thinking of changing cam, front cover, install a crab, etc. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Straightpipes

I have a very nice running 8BA engine with attached 39 transmission. It is fairly stock with a Merc cam. .060 over. EAB heads. I am thinking of putting it in a 34 truck. I don't want to deal with the fan and crossmember problems. I am thinking of changing cam, front cover, install a crab, etc. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

It works fine. Use the stay rod adapters available for 8ba blocks.
Remember, you are pushing the car along through the stay rods.
Without them, you are pushing through the rubber motor mounts.

[Ol' Ron]

In my opinion the Best ignition system for a :Street engine" is the converted GM unit. No other ignition system offers the tunability it provides. I wanted to have a thread on tuning the flathead, and you'll see why.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

In my opinion the Best ignition system for a :Street engine" is the converted GM unit. No other ignition system offers the tunability it provides. I wanted to have a thread on tuning the flathead, and you'll see why.

Perhaps so, but another option is to convert a Mallory made to fit a GM complete with vacuum advance and other tune-ability features.
(and you don't have the over-sized distributor cap that looks out of place)
( also if you don't like the red cap Napa has a black one Pn. ECH MA2 )

[Ol' Ron]

Does the mallory have an adjustable Mechanical advance? An interesting note is: The MSD Distributors us the GM mechanical advance. With no adjustments, except with bushing swaps/
Gramps

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Does the mallory have an adjustable Mechanical advance? An interesting note is: The MSD Distributors us the GM mechanical advance. With no adjustments, except with bushing swaps/
Gramps

Check here for some information---


https://static.summitracing.com/glob.../maa-29015.pdf


https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/500-2318001.pdf

[Ol' Ron]

Yes, now I remember it. However, I don't remember ever using it. At that time in my life I didn't really care about economy cruising, I was a |Pedal to the metal" Kinds guy. Tiday, with the cost of building an engine, you might as wekk have it stick around for awhile. If in tune, it should last for ever. Stay tuned.
Gramos.

[woodiedude]

I have been involved with cars for more than 40 years but I am fairly new to Ford Flatheads. I do have a Pontiac Straight 8 flathead in my Woodie, but it is very different from the Ford.

After doing research for the past 2 months, I am going to have a 59a built for my newly acquired very original and unrestored 40 Ford Convertible. This car has not been driven since 1973


Specs for the engine currently, however I would appreciate comments

59a block, 3 5/16 bore
4 1/8 inch stroke Scat Crank
Ford 7 inch French Rods
Isky Max 1 or Isky 77b reground cam
Edmunds 2 carb intake
Two 97 Carbs, I intend to send them to Uncle Max
Chevy 1.5 Manley Valves
Ross Pistons
Edelbrock Block Letter Heads (65 or 74 cc) Input appreciated, is 9:1 or 8:1 preferred?
Amateur port and relieving the block (Will do this myself)
Melling M19 oil pump
Partial flow oil filter
Stromberg e fire distributor
powermaster 12V alternator (Will be mounted front and center)
powermaster starter

Acid dip, paint interior, and pressure seal block

[Ol' Ron]

284ci is a big engine, should preform very well. I don't recommend relieving the bolck and porting can reduce performance if done wrong. The selection of camshaft and the planned CR of the engine befor you buy the heads. Also why the french rods they will work oK on a large journal but the crank might had the small journal for the 21a rods and floating bearing , another item You might consider. Now all this depends on the Application If it just a cruiser, it's an expensive one. Also the Scat crank assy will usually come with "H: beam rods and Ross pistons, which a best suited for racing. Now a 276CI engine would be 50% cheaper, and still provide the same performance, 90% of the time.
O word on porting. On the bottom of the port there is a hump in from of the valve guide, DONOT remove it, it directs airflow away from the back of the bowl.
Gramps

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Does the mallory have an adjustable Mechanical advance? An interesting note is: The MSD Distributors us the GM mechanical advance. With no adjustments, except with bushing swaps/
Gramps

Yep actually the Mallory is the most adjustable advance unit out there . limits and rates are adjustable with no parts needed . A good one for sure ......