re-install 36 distributor

[36 ford]

Howdy folks,

I'm soliciting tips on how one person re-installs the dang helmet distributor with barely room to get one hand there in the front of the motor . I know an extra set of hands helps. I don't understand the logic in this design with a fan blade, generator and a radiator about 2 inches away.

Thanks for the help..

Phil

[rockfla]

My dad always said "Car's are designed by people who don't work on them!". Try getting a longer bolt of the same size and cutting the head off the bolt, thread it in a few turns and use it as an Alignment pin/extra rest. Then get the tab lined up and against the cam and thread the other two bolt into their holes, then unthread your alignment bolt and thread the third bolt into place!!!! OR cut three and swap out once you get it all lined up!!!!

[FlatheadTed]

(1)It helps to set the tang at the approximate angle to the Dog slot in the cam ,eg wide side down or up .you can use carb stud screwed in to help locate it .(2)with the vacuum adjuster stud and coil removed ,from the left side of the car slide the distributor in side ways with the left hand then rotate it ,.With the right hand through the coil hole rotate the rotor to engage with the dog ,(3)fit the removed parts while its on the car ,you could do it with the coil on and fit a bolt loose then rotate the shaft/rotor to engage the dog also (typing at the same time as Rocfla )

[KiWinUS]

#1 thing is to put a piece of corrugated cardboard on radiator core to protect it & your hand
Cheers
Tony

[J Franklin]

The generator and fan are easily removed.

[Gary Tosel]

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I realize you have to remove the pan below the grille to do this, but installing the distributor from the bottom I believe is easier than fighting the fan, hoses and generator.

[Phil Gillespie]

Installing from the bottom is the easiest way to go.
The can be put in place from the top complete with coil fitted on top.
Once you get the right angle and then a twist and complete fitting from below.
have in last few weeks had distributors in and out many many times and thats even with the small adaptor button on the cam in play. This can be held in place with a drop of grease on the surface to cam while distributor is fitted.
Best of luck.
Phil NZ
Phil NZ.

[MGG]

I made 2 temporary studs to install finger tight in the 2 highest holes. This way it is easy to keep the gasket in place while I slide the distributor onto the studs. I reach in with my finger through one of the cap holes and turn the rotor to line up the drive tang and slide it into place. Put in the one bolt finger tight and then remove the other 2 studs and put in the bolts one at a time. When you are sure all is lined up tighten the 3 bolts and you're done. I used to dread this job but not anymore.

[jimTN]

Pulling the fan is the easiest way and make sure your dist will move easily when you fit it up, twist it back and forth to make sure it is all the way in and the tang is properly aligned prior to putting the bolts in.

[ford38v8]

Something the others haven't mentioned... The tang is slightly offset to insure that it is not installed 180º out. When engaged correctly, the distributor will drop cleanly into place against the engine. Do not draw it into place with the mounting bolts!
I also agree that using a longer headless stud as a locating pin is the way to go.

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>I don't understand the logic in this design with a fan blade, generator and a radiator about 2 inches away.>>>

The helmet & crabs were designed to be cheap, symmetrical & unobstrusive, not serviceable. Probably cuz Ford engineers had the foresight to realize the hotly-anticipated electronic ignition wouldn't need much servicing as points & condensers. There's your logic! 8^) Jack E/NJ

[fordv8j]

I always changed the distributor from the top on my 38,some guy at a show said it was easier from the bottom, have to remove radiator pan, and horn steady bracket, but they come off easy,I tried it that's the way to go, the horns probably wouldn't be an issue on a 36

[FlatheadTed]

Pre 37 cars can be changed from the top ok because the fender shield s are low , 37 onwards the side panel needs to be removed .or fit from the bottom that's been mentioned .In the day when we drove them as regular transport I cannot remember ever having to work on a distributor ,genuine Ford parts and set up by a competent Ford tecknishon ? it will last for thousands of miles .his plan not to have it of every week ,

[rotorwrench]

Parts were quality and well made back then. Once they were serviced, they could go a long time with no problems. With modern condensers, there is a good chance they will go bad and ruin the points.

[jacob smith]

My dad tells a story of going to a v8 club meeting in the 70s and the speaker was the guy who put the distributor in that spot. Started his speech by saying that he was the son of a bitch the put the distributor on the front of the flathead. He went on to say the Henry would not spend the extra money to move it to a better spot.

[Jack E/NJ]

You mean that SOB really didn't have any foresight and blamed it all on his boss for being cheap? Jack E/NJ

[jacob smith]

That is the story i got

[koates]

I have always removed the bottom radiator pan on the 36 Ford to service the distributer. Ive done a few and its fairly easy. Doing it from the top is only making more work for yourself. Regards, Kevin.

[Lawrie]

Kevin, thats what you get with those new fangled models,if you stick to the 33/34 its no drama,Lol
Lawrie

[rotorwrench]

Marion Mallory was the one who put it there at Henry Ford's request. It had to drive off the cam so it was bolted right to the front of it. It eliminated gears and the need for timing the engine plus it had an automatic advance/retard system built in. This started in 1932 with the V8. Mallory moved his whole operation to Detroit to product designs and parts for Ford Motor Company. I think the guy was a genius for his time and Henry did too. I believe he died in 1963 but his son did take over the business.

The distributor was refined over the years from 1932 to 1946 to try and improve things and kept till the 8BA era. The 1942 crab made it easier to work on but it became vulnerable to moisture contamination so it was redesigned in the war years to get it sealed back up. They didn't have computers to help them figure this stuff out. It was all trial and error but overall, I think they did a pretty good job of it. I'd rather work at the front of the engine than crawl over the engine to get to the rear like the Y-blocks were.

[FlatheadTed]

It was Emil Zoerlien who took the orders from Henry to develop it and fit it on there ,It wouldn't be a early flathead with out the distributor on the front. The Diver Dan ,one of the best pieces of art and Engineering out there .

[FlatheadTed]

Malory might have been involved or came into the picture later on ,

[rotorwrench]

That's not the way Mallory painted the picture. According to their company history, it was he and Henry that developed the first system for the V8 and subsequent improvements. The patent papers also tell a story. He was a close second to Tom Edison in the number of registered patents in that time frame.

[FlatheadTed]

This article was taken from Ford Life ,I can recall about 30 years ago the Same comment
Also I notice my early distributors have Ford stamped all over them ,does this mean a Patent infringement by Ford .

Originally Posted by jacob smith

My dad tells a story of going to a v8 club meeting in the 70s and the speaker was the guy who put the distributor in that spot. Started his speech by saying that he was the son of a bitch the put the distributor on the front of the flathead. He went on to say the Henry would not spend the extra money to move it to a better spot.

[jacob smith]

My dad did say it had something to do with the fact the Ford did not want to spend the extra money for additional gears to move the distributor.

[Brendan]

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Originally Posted by Gary Tosel

I realize you have to remove the pan below the grille to do this, but installing the distributor from the bottom I believe is easier than fighting the fan, hoses and generator.

yup that is the easy way! also if you can get some help

[FlatheadTed]

This is how you change one on a 47

[Lawrie]

Ted ,would you be able to get a copy of the mag article,
thanks Lawrie

[rotorwrench]

Henry Ford payed to use a lot of other peoples patent rights as long as it didn't cost him an arm and a leg. He didn't like using Bendix brakes either due to costs but he used them on the Lincoln cars. He and Mallory were a lot alike and became good friends back in the late 20s. I'm sure they had agreements between them that were good for both parties and Mallory supplied Ford the parts he wanted, Ford name and all. Holley became the ignition supplier at the beginning of the 8BA era but this was after Henry Ford had passed and Henry II was running things.

Harvey Firestone was in the family and also close to Henry so Ford Motors used Firestone tires and many of those early ones had the Ford brand on them.

I'm not saying there wasn't any one else involved but Mallory was the original patent holder of the design that was used. Here is a link. http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-a...lory-ignition/

[FlatheadTed]

Yes I can I have the book ,I am trying to get better pictures up that's readable ,Ted

[FlatheadTed]

I do have the Magazine Lawry

I will try and put up clearer stuff next week ,there is a lot more info out there . Emil was a electrical engineering who did his trade in Germany The third picture is Emil holding a trophy given on his retirement in 59 I(Quote )t was made up out of a 36 distributor by the Experimental machine shop employees to represent the item he was most commonly associated with ,The story goes that Henry did not have a electric motor to test the distributor with so he had Emil make up a model steam engine to rev at 3000-RPM ? to test it ,also he said they had no coil so they stuck a model A coil on top glued in with ocom .Henry wanted the HT wires encased in baker lite ,ect
Going by Rotor wrenches link there may have been some involvement by Malory

[FlatheadTed]

To add to this its documented that Emil was put in charge of the Dynamiter testing room to work out timing of the v8 as they were having trouble .Also cam shaft experiments ,Later on wind tunnel work on cooling in 37 .Ted

[petehoovie]

Here's the Emil Zoerlein Patent of 1943 > https://www.google.com/patents/US2326113

It's the CRAB....Click on the Images

[rotorwrench]

Henry Ford was eventually granted Patent Number 2,020,405 in November 1935. The Patent office considered it different enough to grant him this patent. The original Mallory patent was in the theory and design of a front mounted distributor but it was a pretty basic and general design. There was plenty of room for improvement and Ford did so several times in those first 5 years of the V8.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Henry Ford was eventually granted Patent Number 2,020,405 in November 1935. The Patent office considered it different enough to grant him this patent. The original Mallory patent was in the theory and design of a front mounted distributor but it was a pretty basic and general design. There was plenty of room for improvement and Ford did so several times in those first 5 years of the V8.

See > http://www.google.com/patents/US1963...patent:1963657

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Henry Ford payed to use a lot of other peoples patent rights as long as it didn't cost him an arm and a leg. He didn't like using Bendix brakes either due to costs but he used them on the Lincoln cars. He and Mallory were a lot alike and became good friends back in the late 20s. I'm sure they had agreements between them that were good for both parties and Mallory supplied Ford the parts he wanted, Ford name and all. Holley became the ignition supplier at the beginning of the 8BA era but this was after Henry Ford had passed and Henry II was running things.

Harvey Firestone was in the family and also close to Henry so Ford Motors used Firestone tires and many of those early ones had the Ford brand on them.

I'm not saying there wasn't any one else involved but Mallory was the original patent holder of the design that was used. Here is a link. http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-a...lory-ignition/

Henry Ford believed that hard work should profit, and that investors and patent holders were immoral parasites. His win in the Selden License suit bolstered that belief that he carried throughout his life, and can be seen in all his business dealings. That the Lincoln car's features didn't always follow this philosophy was because it was under the leadership of Edsel rather than Henry.

The Ford tires were produced by Ford in his own tire plant. I may be wrong, but I don't think Firestone manufactured any tires bearing the Ford name. In general, though, the Ford name did appear on many parts going into the Ford car for reasons involving product liability on knockoff replacement parts.

[rotorwrench]

Another example of Henrys dealings with out side sources was Chandler Groves. Ford couldn't make all the units he needed for production so he outsourced a lot of stuff like the carburetors but he always secured deals with these companies which were to benefit him in the end. This was the same reason he bought out John & Horace Dodge at great expense. If you wanted to make things for Henry Ford, he had to like you first and then he had to end up owning the product or you wouldn't supply for him. This is all well known in the FoMoCo history. Another example was Houdaille shock absorbers. Henry didn't design those either but he did produce them. Agreements were made with Houde Engineering to produce them as well as National and Spicer. Ford made a lot of their own stuff but they had to have back up when production was high or in case of an accident at a plant, labor strike, or something of that nature.

[FlatheadTed]

These are some publications taken fron various publications ,the first from Petersons Ford of the thirty's. Spider Huff head of Electricial was asked by HF to develop the dist ,he said it couldn't be done so the job was given to Emil

[FlatheadTed]

xxxxxxxxxxx

[rotorwrench]

The article indicates several possibilities. A person can believe that Ford built the system entirely by his own research done by his own employees and they can also believe that the secrecy was due to elimination of industrial espionage and/or possible patent right infringement security. A lot was going on in Fords head at the time. The fact that he was treating Emil like a mushroom also indicates something else. My guess is that he never told Emil about the Mallory idea and he didn't want him to find out either. Ford already knew what he wanted which was somewhat similar to what Mallory was already trying to patent at the time. Ford likely didn't want Mallory knowing what he was doing there so he kept his developments a secret. Mallory was awarded patent rights on his design in 1934 which gave Ford a window of opportunity to use his own changes on the design from early 1932 until he could secure his own patent in 1935. It would be interesting to find out what went on there with Mallory since he was already producing parts for Ford on the Model A/B design. Mallory likely made those first coils for the early 1932 Ford until Ford could tool up for that stuff. Mallory may have figured Ford would have to pay him royalties on his original patent but Ford likely had leverage due to the changes he had already made on Mallory's design. All I know is that it must not have bothered Mallory too much since he continued to supply a lot of Fords needs for ignition parts right up to 1948. This indicates he likely didn't have a big problem with Ford as long as he was getting a piece of the production pie. Henry Ford's name is the only one on that patent in 1935 so you can see that Ford didn't include Emil in the credit for that either. If Emil was involved to that extent, you would think that his name would have been included like it was in the 1943 patent. Ford and many other manufacturers had their employees sign documents to the affect that what ever was developed by them became the sole property of the manufacturer that paid for that development but their names were generally included. Henry Ford's character was flawed in that respect. I think he had a lot of explaining to do at the pearly gates with the way he treated his son Edsel.

I worked for a guy that had spent quite a few years working for Bill Harrah at his museum restoration shop in Reno. He specialized in Stanley Steamer automobiles. He had a little steam engine that came from an elaborate popcorn popping machine from the 1930s. He ran it off of compressed air but it sounds a lot like the one Emil made to run the distributor machine. It had a flywheel governor on it too. The little thing would run at a pretty high rpm when the pressure was throttled up to governor speed. I guess the pop corn machine had all sorts of little mechanical thing to run on it like a little carnival display with a ferris wheel and a carrousel.

[Hoop]

From the Pittsburgh Press, Feb. 14, 1932:

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/146911503/

"FORD ORDERS MILLION PARTS FOR NEW AUTO Distributor Inventor to Furnish Changed Type isy The Unitea Press" ' TOLEDO, O., Feb. 13 The Ford Motor Company has placed an order for 1,000,000 new-type ignition distributors with the Mallory Electric Corporation, of Toledo, who announced the order today. The distributors invention of Marion Mallory, president, as part of a vacuum controlled ignition system will be used for the first time on the new eight-cylinder Fords. Ford engineers collaborated on the invention."

[FlatheadTed]

I think Ford recruited Mallory to help them as they were having trouble getting it to work Hoops post says They used part of a Mallorys invention .They wanted to make 4000 engines a day so that's a lot of suppliers .In the 34 book it lists the suppliers to Ford and Mallory does not fetcher ,that's not to say he wasn't involved.

[rotorwrench]

Model T & A cars were more simple but Ford had a lot of outside suppliers to back him up. The Model B and Model 18 cars sort of split the line so things got a lot more complex in 1932. Ford also had companies supplying parts for the older Model A and Model T after the change in 1932 so that the company could concentrate on new production. To have a complete and unabridged list of suppliers would be a monumental task to research in this day and age. A lot of information out there is incomplete and may only include one side to a story on some things. There are a lot of good books out there on the Ford cars and Henry Ford but it would take a whole lot larger book to include the whole history from each perspective I'm sure.

That news article mentions that Mallory was still in Toledo. He moved his whole operation to Detroit shortly after that.

[FlatheadTed]

I think the posts show who put the Distributor on the front and it was Henry and Emil ,this was not new to Henry as he had it on the T .in the 34 book it lists the Exhibiters at the word fair and Mallory was one ,In a 1936 shop book I have it shows a Mallory distributor a Dbl point affair and on another page it shows the Ford distributor making a distinction between them ,The Dbl points were used by Lincoln Cadillac v8s ,Delco and others at the time it could have been Mallorys Patent though.There is no question that there was a collaboration between them & Mallory good enough to get the contract for a 1.000,000 units

[FlatheadTed]

This wasn't my thread But thanks Rotor wrench, Hoop and others ,I certainly have learnt something ,Mallory had a greater input than what I thought .Ted

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

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Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

This wasn't my thread But thanks Rotor wrench, Hoop and others ,I certainly have learnt something ,Mallory had a greater input than what I thought .Ted

I just re read the article on Emil Zoerlein , my take was that Mallory (Indianapolis) helped them out with the igntion coil on the Zoerlien distributor. The tall coil has a Model A coil inside it...