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Old 11-01-2017, 04:14 PM   #1
Crankster
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Default Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Given that I'm not too sure about the quality of the rebuild I had done some years and miles ago I've decided to replace the valve springs as they may well have a lot of miles. The rocker arm assembly has to come off for this anyway, and may well find that the rocker arm shafts are buggered. Is it usually the case that the rocker arms themselves are also heavily worn? I can bet the rocker arm tips need resurfacing, but if everything is otherwise OK I'd like to reuse them. Can get kind of spendy real quick, but. Seems to me can probably get away with just rocker shaft replacement, though I see there are rocker arm rebuilding services that will sleeve them. I'm afraid once I get into this much it will be obvious right away whether standard items or assemblies were skipped.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

I think it is Smith Brothers that will rebuild your assemblies. It is primo work, which is what you would want right? Get a set of new pushrods from them at the same time.If you don't want to spend the money, then why do it at all?
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

The only place I could find that rebuilds them is out in California @rockerarms.com

It may be cheaper to find new rocker arms. I've been reasonably good about oil changes, there's no sludge. There's about 30k miles on it since I got the engine back from this guy. Maybe the rocker shafts, rocker arms are OK, no way to tell till I get them apart. But that's not the way to bet. I agree do it once, do it right.

The problem is, I tend to have a "Might as well replace _____ and better do _____, so long as I'm in there." I could see this snowballing into all kinds of things. Not quite a whole rebuild... lol But maybe a new intake.. camshaft... You see where this is going right?
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

If you have that attitude, it's not all bad. Take a PROPER compression test first, with valves adjusted as close as possible. Maybe you can just replace rocker arm assys, and pushrods. Valve springs and seals also. Maybe that should do it. Also, whats wrong with being a little overboard with your pet?
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

That's the plan, won't know till I look at stuff closer. Can the valve springs be replaced without removing the rocker arm assembly? Then I wouldn't look at all that other stuff, ha ha. It sort of looks like the rocker arms would slide far enough sideways, maybe not.
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Old 11-01-2017, 11:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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The valve springs can be tested as to the amount of force it takes to depress them. The amount of force should very closely match on all the springs. The way I done it before was to measure the amount of force in each and compare. the spring that has the highest compression force is used as a basis for all the other springs. You can get lots of different thickness washer shims to place under the springs to increase their compression force. Keep the proper thickness washers with the spring being tested to match the spring that has the highest force. Test all springs and add washers as needed to match the highest tested spring.
With rocker arms, you can measure the slop and keep all those that measure within the tolerances given in the specifications at the back of the shop manual. The ones that are greater than the allowable tolerances can have the brass bushing driven out and new bushing pressed in.
I recommend numbering with a paper tag and bread wrapper wire each spring and rocker arm as to it's original position on the rocker shaft so they can be put back in the same place they were removed from, that way, there should be little adjustment required of the rocker arm adjusting screws after assembly.
There's not a whole lot you can do with a worn rocker shaft except to replace it with a new one, but being a tightwad as I was, I measured the riding surfaces with a micrometer to see if there was substantial wear in an attempt to re-use them so I wouldn't need to buy new ones.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Right, but my thinking was better to just replace the springs. Stock springs aren't going to have lots of pressure and should last a while, and I don't run it at high revs much. But they probably have a LOT of miles on them. For $36 a set, what the heck. But it's easy to find lots more bad or out of spec parts once everything gets disassembled. Unfortunately we don't have the machine shops around here anymore. So even simple things like rocker faces resurfaced would be a pita. I'll have to dig in the manual and see what the specs are for wear on the rockers and shaft. Not much, I'll bet. New rocker shafts alone would probably go a long way. Rocker arms range in price from $2.89 (they only had 4) to almost $50 per. Then want to ensure push rods are straight.. Maybe some oiling mods etc.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

OK, pulled one rocker arm assembly so far and found deep scoring and some galling. So rounded up some NOS rocker arms and Melling rocker shafts. It's just great to go through all this stuff and re-do what I thought I paid for 20 years ago. Anyway.

The spring replacement is more complicated than I thought, since the heads are on. It's not a race engine but the installed or assembled spring height is important. If the heads have been reworked - then different shims will (should) be found on every valve correct? And if so, then there is nothing more to be done? Install new spring, move on. This is complicated by the fact that only one cylinder at a time can be worked, i.e. using the "rope trick".
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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If the heads have been reworked - then different shims will (should) be found on every valve correct? And if so, then there is nothing more to be done? Install new spring, move on.
Nope. The needed thickness of shims under each valve spring is a combination of at least 2 different things...
1. How deep or shallow the valve sits in the combustion chamber.
2. The actual pressure needed to compress each individual spring.

The existing valve springs may or may not be within specs.
Newer springs should be consistent but don't assume they're all exactly the same.

If you're looking to get all the assembled spring pressures the same on used heads with used valves then the shims under the springs will be slightly different, along with the assembled spring height.

I have no idea what the oem valve to valve seat pressure spec is, but on a stock engine 'more' is usually not better. It creates additional valvetrain wear.
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Quote:
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Given that I'm not too sure about the quality of the rebuild I had done some years and miles ago...

I could see this snowballing into all kinds of things.

OK, pulled one rocker arm assembly so far and found deep scoring and some galling. .....
It's just great to go through all this stuff and re-do what I thought I paid for 20 years ago.
Your initial suspicions about the quality of work he did may be confirmed.
Take some time and decide what to do before you go much farther.

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Old 11-04-2017, 03:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Well I don't want to get down to the granular level here. I'll "assume" that the new, stock type U.S.A. made in Aug. '17 valve springs are "close enough" provided I check or adjust the assembled height for each valve. Since they are stock it shouldn't stress the valve train any, although maybe more than it has been in a long while. It looks to me like the "engine rebuilder" didn't do a damn thing near as I can tell. Just eyeballing right now, I don't see any evidence of shims on any of the valves, they'd be visible wouldn't they?

One site recommends compressing the new springs a few times with a valve spring compressor before installation and measurement. Will a vise work for this purpose? I don't see why not, but ya never know.

Plan on replacing the pushrods so didn't pay much attention when removing them. Found these two on the passenger side. I've read that the wrong intake bolts can cause this, but looking down the holes I can't see any obstruction. Wondering if this was remedied at some time in the past, but the "rebuilder" didn't bother replacing them.
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Old 11-04-2017, 04:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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I don't see any evidence of shims on any of the valves, they'd be visible wouldn't they?

I've read that the wrong intake bolts can cause this, but looking down the holes I can't see any obstruction. Wondering if this was remedied at some time in the past, but the "rebuilder" didn't bother replacing them.
Those new springs should be fine.

Any valve spring shims should be between the base of the spring and the head.

Yes, the 2 smaller bolt holes at each end of the heads (4 on each head) are open into the pushrod passages. A bolt that's too long will definitely do that.

http://www.ford-y-block.com/assemblyerrors.htm
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

If incorrect intake bolts are installed would this would be visible looking down the pushrod hole? I expected to see bolt threads somewhere down there innards.

What I mean is, the shims should be visible undeneath the springs, on the surface of the head. I'm not really setup for this, I don't have a valve spring micrometer. Cool item, but. My tape measure won't cut it here apparently.
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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If incorrect intake bolts are installed would this would be visible looking down the pushrod hole? I expected to see bolt threads somewhere down there innards.
Yes, if bolts are to long you should see them protruding in the pushrod hole.

On setting your spring pressures here is a suggestion. Have you got a drill press? Have you got a machinist steel ruler (6" version)?
I checked on John Mummerts web site and stock seat pressure is 65# so if you have a drill press , machinist rule, and a bathroom scale you would be in business.
I use a drill press, Vernier calipers, and a spring pressure gauge from Summit for less than 100.00 to do my race heads with no issues. The are 375# on the seat.

Dave
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Well the problem there is the heads are installed? Of course when heads are removed, and access is a lot easier the trick setup is to measure the opening and closing spring pressure allowing for some variance in the actual assembled height, within the limits. Even springs from the same lot will vary somewhat so this is a cut and try method. I figure these springs are original and may have 100k miles plus. Replacement with fresh springs should make for a better running motor. If I don't screw up anyway.

I'd be happy with getting them all at the low end of the assembled height, this would be the maximum (stock) spring pressure, but since everything is stock, spring binding could never really be an issue? With the heads installed, keep in mind I'm limited to only doing one cylinder at a time. Assembled height spec is 1-3/4" to 1-25/32"

Had no idea valve springs were this complicated! I just figured they would be pretty tired by now and I should swap 'em out. They are an overlooked part of engine tuning, performance, smoothness at idle and fuel economy, ease of cold weather starting &c.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Couple more things I was thinking of doing

1. Since plugs all have to be out, and rocker assembly is removed, maybe spin the motor over for 30 seconds or so and ensure adequate oil flow from the gallery at each head. Not sure how much is considered good. Maybe shoot some solvent and shop air down the holes?

2. The instructions for this task recommend assembly grease on the pushrod cups and ball end, rocker tips/valve stem. Something like Lubriplate 105 is the plan. Maybe grease the rocker arm bores themselves and the shaft? And lots of oil, too.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

With unclear history of the rest of the assembled engine, trying to overthink the valve spring setup may be more trouble than it's worth.
Did you do a compression test on the engine before you took the rocker arms off?

Put the new valve springs on, fix the few rocker arm parts that are obviously bad, put it back together and drive it.
If you really are worried about how the engine was built the other choice is that 'snowball' thing you mentioned earlier.
(been there, done that)
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

It's been a little while. They all ran 140 to 150 cold engine. Spec is 170. Engine vacuum is good too - 20" but the ignition timing has to be goosed pretty good to get there. I think stock ignition timing is 3° or something like that. Y's like a lot of advance, in my opinion.

Not trying to overthink anything, just make sure they are in spec?

Yes only replacing what's needed, that was the plan, but I knew all I would find is junk parts. Both rocker shafts are scrap. So are the rocker arms. It's all on order, just waiting for them to arrive.

So it's safe to say heads from the factory never ran any shims, strictly a rebuild thing? As in the the valve faces get refinished, hardened seats, whatever?

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Old 11-04-2017, 07:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Maybe shoot some solvent and shop air down the holes?

...heads from the factory never ran shims, strictly a rebuild thing?
That will blow any crud in the oil passage back down to the center cam bearing.

Shims were often to compensate for grinding the valves and valve seats at valve-job time.

"140 to 150 cold." Again, I'll vote for putting the valvetrain back together and driving it.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Couple more things I was thinking of doing

1. Since plugs all have to be out, and rocker assembly is removed, maybe spin the motor over for 30 seconds or so and ensure adequate oil flow from the gallery at each head. Not sure how much is considered good. Maybe shoot some solvent and shop air down the holes?

2. The instructions for this task recommend assembly grease on the pushrod cups and ball end, rocker tips/valve stem. Something like Lubriplate 105 is the plan. Maybe grease the rocker arm bores themselves and the shaft? And lots of oil, too.


By all means, be sure that both sides are receiving oil. The lack thereof, is a very common cause of valvetrain wear on a Y block.
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Old 11-04-2017, 11:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Yes, if bolts are to long you should see them protruding in the pushrod hole.

On setting your spring pressures here is a suggestion. Have you got a drill press? Have you got a machinist steel ruler (6" version)?
I checked on John Mummerts web site and stock seat pressure is 65# so if you have a drill press , machinist rule, and a bathroom scale you would be in business.
I use a drill press, Vernier calipers, and a spring pressure gauge from Summit for less than 100.00 to do my race heads with no issues. The are 375# on the seat.

Dave
I might be able to figure something out, I don't want to make a career out of these valve springs though. So the idea is something like this, install spring on valve. Measure valve spring height. Or measure some other way with proper tools.

Then, determine #s pressure when a spring is compressed to exactly that same height. Maybe mix and match springs as required to get the right pressure.

Didn't realize the valve springs were that precise about height or affect the numbers by being out of spec. The difference between "too high" and "too low" in this example I'm working on is 1/32" of an inch. Now I know why they sell those barrel micrometers.
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:07 AM   #21
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

You have a well thought out plan. When doing this work, I like to restrict the oil flow out the overflow tube, to force more oil to the left side of each shaft. I have cut the tapered tip off the overflow tubes, then tapped the tube and put in a drilled screw. A pinch with a vicegrip may work as well. The exercise is good if at warm idle you have the same oil seepage from under all the rocker arms equally.
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:27 AM   #22
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

I'd sort of like to compare the flow from both sides, before reinstallation of the rocker assemblies. Seems to me have read it's the passenger side that often has trouble first. All of the oil flows from just a single gallery at each head. I was always a little unclear on how the whole arrangement worked. So the idea of "backflushing" the oil gallery with shop air isn't really a good one?

Just eyeballing the valvetrain in the past, say during a valve lash adjustment, it seemed to have pretty good flow to both sides. Everything wet with oil and no sludge buildup, it's tough to know how at this late date how much of the galling and wear evident on the rocker shaft was from a prior life. Modern detergent oils (and leaded gas) keep things a lot cleaner.
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Old 11-05-2017, 11:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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..... I was always a little unclear on how the whole arrangement worked. So the idea of "backflushing" the oil gallery with shop air isn't really a good one? ....
Double checking the oil flow to each head is a very good idea and lots of folks do modify the overflow tube for good reasons.

I'd be concerned that backflushing the oil passages down from the rocker stand surface could force debris into the center cam bearing.

Both heads get their oil from passages off the center cam bearing. Those passages have two 90* turns at the head gasket and are slightly smaller up thru the head. That spot at the head gasket, sludge buildup and the shallow flat oil passage under the head getting clogged may have been the underlying cause of oil starvation to the rocker arms.
If the head gasket under that shallow oil passage swells slightly that doesn't help either.

"modern" motor oils.
With the addition of catalytic converters to newer cars, motor oil had some previously included necessary chemicals removed to avoid contaminating the newly mandated emission equipment.
Having those additives in your oil is highly recommended for pre-emission era engines. See this link...

https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/EngineOil.php

.
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Old 11-05-2017, 11:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

I guess I'm not very good at writing clearly sometimes! Well aware oil flow is critical on these.

The problem is I don't really have any baseline to compare it to. Can let it idle warmed up, pull the valve covers and say "Yep, it's getting oil". But then how much is "enough"? For example a mechanical fuel pump has a pretty good shade tree estimate of at least a pint in under 30 seconds. Not scientific but it's in the ballpark.

What I can do at this stage is check to see if both galleries are flowing evenly from the heads, while the rocker assemblies are being rebuilt. A lot of people do this with a drill on the oil pump shaft. I've about had enough of pulling and reinstalling the distributor after recurving, so the plan is to spin the motor with the starter, plugs removed etc.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Seems to be good news - after about 10 or 15 seconds of cranking I was relieved to see what I would deem to be both strong pressure, and volume, from both rocker pads. In other "Might as well" news, replacing the valve stem seals would seem to be a no brainer too.

Laying a straight edge across the valve stem ends seems to show they are all identical in height, but doing the same across the valve spring retainers shows they are way off. Maybe 1/16 or more, they are all over the place. The way Comp Cams explains it, each valve assembled height is measured and recorded. Then all the other valves are adjusted with shims to the "shortest" spring. To get real fussy, actual spring pressure in pounds of each individual spring is measured at the assembled height on a spring tester. We're just going to get them all the same height. I looked at maybe borrowing a barrel micrometer, but it sounds like a lot of the commonly available types won't work on Y block heads? Maybe something to do with the valve guides getting in the way.

How do the plugs look, btw. Any insight?
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:22 AM   #26
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Will a valve really drop? Starting in replacing the springs. I took a section of soft rubber hose, tied a knot on one end and stuffed all of it in the spark plug hole, and brought that cylinder up to TDC, or near enough. But I got to thinking, with piston at TDC will a valve drop that far where the stem couldn't be retrieved?

Noticed a couple valve stem tips show indication that they haven't been rotating. There's no measurable wear or fretting or anything but the rocker tip has made a line where the color is different. Aren't the two piece retainers + keepers supposed to allow for valve rotation?
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

OK, all sixteen (16) (whew!) new valve springs installed and shimmed to spec. Can sort of unrecommend that with the heads installed but it's definitely doable. 1/2" OD rubber hose, tie a knot in it, cut to 14" long works slick to keep valves from dropping. Have an el-cheapo air compressor but the fitting was not the same size as the compression gauge hose.

Old springs free height has definitely sagged and a few checked at random are no longer square. One thing I've read, at least with old springs, it's not so critical to have ZDDP oils. Spring manufacturers also recommend a run-in RPM of 2000-2500 till engine warms, and a cool down. This seems like a good plan considering the ole camshaft and lifters haven't seen normal spring pressure in a while.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Well got it buttoned up this weekend and ran it in @ 1500 to 2000 till it warmed up pretty good, and test drive, checked for good oiling, set the valve lash hot etc and the rest of it, and would call it a success. Very much noticeably smoother and better power. Crane cams has a .pdf where they outline the importance of valve springs and one of the things they mentioned that even with a stock engine, proper valve spring pressure will result in a "smoother idle and better cold start and cold weather driveability", something that hadn't really occured to me.

So I thought I'd check that this morning, and darned if they aren't exactly right. Started right up with a couple pumps, and just for test purpose was able to take the choke off within seconds and slow idled real nice. It's not super cold right now but this wasn't possible before swapping out those springs. If you're chasing some cold start or other driveability problems like this, maybe give those springs a second look!
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Anyone know the correct size or part Number for the wave washers on the Rocker Arm assemblies? Need 'em for my 292

https://www.mcmaster.com/wave-washers
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:15 AM   #30
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Anyone know the correct size or part Number for the wave washers on the Rocker Arm assemblies? Need 'em for my 292

B8A 6598-A

1.18in OD
.86in ID
.008in Thick
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:34 PM   #31
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Out of curiosity how and what tool did you use to remove the springs?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Out of curiosity how and what tool did you use to remove the springs?
Which springs?
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:10 AM   #33
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Valve springs
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Out of curiosity how and what tool did you use to remove the springs?
wellcraft17,
go back and look at the difference in dates between comments 28 and 29... Nov '17 and April of '19.
dirtywaterdiver tagged a new/different question onto the end of an older thread about valve springs.
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Old 04-25-2019, 02:55 AM   #35
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Post Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

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Out of curiosity how and what tool did you use to remove the springs?
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Valve springs
Are the heads on the vehicle or are the heads on the bench?
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:17 AM   #36
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

I’m thinking about replacing the valve seals with the heads still on the block and was thinking how to compress the valve springs. Or maybe it’s easier just to pull the heads?
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:26 AM   #37
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Post Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

There is a tool(s) that allow you to do it on the car. You will need a compressor to hold the valves closed with air pressure and another to compress the valve retainers to remove the springs.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Thanks, can you or someone point me in the right direction as to where I can get one of these tools. The adapter for the compressor that screws into the spark plug hole I have, it’s the tool for compressing of the valve spring I need.
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Old 04-25-2019, 03:11 PM   #39
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Post Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

There are two styles here- https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-...ing-compressor
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Thanks Kultulz
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:18 AM   #41
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

No problem and THANX! for thanking...
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

I can't find what diameter the rocker shaft should be? I check the 1956 Ford manual.
Thanks , Brian
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

.781 just measured one of mine
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Old 11-29-2019, 09:07 PM   #44
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Red face Re: Y Block Valve Springs, Rocker Arms &c

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtywaterdiver View Post

Anyone know the correct size or part Number for the wave washers on the Rocker Arm assemblies? Need 'em for my 292

https://www.mcmaster.com/wave-washers
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Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post

B8A 6598-A

1.18in OD
.86in ID
.008in Thick

... ... sigh ...


... you gotta wonder ...


I made a mistake. That PN is for an FE. You want -

EAA 6598-A - Spring Washer

The solid washer is -

EAA 6590-A - Washer - Rocker Arm Shaft

Steel - 1.26" O.D. - .81 " I.D. (So this will be the sizing - Size not given in MPC)

I am sincerely sorry. I am having the old lady call the home in the morning to begin processing ...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rocker Arm Shaft Assembly- FYB _1B - MPC ILL.jpg (57.2 KB, 3 views)
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