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Old 11-22-2016, 02:28 PM   #1
Barber31
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Default Headlight/tail light problems

I'm not getting any lights working front or back and I'm thinking it may be a ground issue due to the powder coated frame and freshly painted fenders and parts. So what's a good way to isolate the ground issue? I have power at the wires coming out the light switch housing and I'm grounding the headlamps from the mounting bolt to the block but still no lights. Any ideas?
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Try grounding the headlamp shell by touching the jumper wire to it. The mounting bolt and nut may need to be cleaned up.
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Old 11-22-2016, 05:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Since it seems you may have powder coated the light brackets, front and rear, it may be that you need to remove the coating in the areas where the grounding would be taking place. If you don't do that, I would advise running another wire from the lights to frame and checking the lights then.
This ground also includes checking to be sure the frame and battery have a good connection also.
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'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

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Old 11-22-2016, 07:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

To ensure a good ground on tail lights (and other electrical things that need a ground), I use "internal tooth lock washers" (available at Home Depot). Once tightened up, they look like regular washers. But their sharp little teeth cut through any paint or rust (or powder coat) and connect with the metal for a good connection.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

The frame and light brackets are both powder coated. I got the battery grounded to the frame good but I think the lamps still are not. I'm trying to tackle the headlamps first and work my way to the back but not making any progress.
Question 1 - The light switch gets power directly from the gen and disperses power from there to the lights?
The yellow/blue wire that is plugged in the center of the light switch shows power on my multimeter. When I'm touching my multimeter test lead from ground to the headlamp wires, I get power from the red, green and yellow lamp wires. So it seems the front lamps are getting power so when I try to ground them with a seperate test lead nothing happens. That's where I'm confused.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

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I'll try that Tom. The bolts and nut are clean but I'll connect to the shell.

Dawizard, I'm trying to skip that part for now and ground directly at the lamp to verify its grounding problems but the fact that that's not even working has got me stumped. Also everything worked when it was a rust bucket before I restored the vehicle. Haha.

Jim, I'll look into those. Thanks.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Ok, providing you have the stock wire colors, the center wire is power from the Horn. and Blue/Yellow.
The Yellow is power for the lights from the generator to the light switch.
If you have juice at the headlight shell on the Black/Green and Black/Red with the switch turned left and right, you now need to open the headlight and make sure that when the plug is inserted into the socket, the two wires are indeed contacting the two light bulb wires on the inside. Either one or the other plugs could be twisted or shifted to lose contact.
If you have power there and then check the plug with the bulb out and still have power, the bulb itself may be bad, or you still do not have sufficient ground to the headlight bell.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

The power I'm getting when poking the wires with multimeter is not affected when I switch the light lever to park or low or high. Maybe I'm not testing it right? I have one test lead poked thru the original colored wires and the other to ground. Is that sufficient for testing? It's shows power but like I said nothing changes when I move the lever. One of my bulbs is popped but not my park lamps and that's what I'm trying to get lit. Once I get one I know I can get the others.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Connect a volt meter between the headlamp socket ground (or shell) and a good engine ground. If you get any reading, then the headlamps need a better ground.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Damn, tis a shame you are in Tx., I would make a house call.

This sounds like there is something wrong with the switch, but not being there with it in my hand and seeing what you do it is really hard to narrow it down to one specific thing.

So, lets start with the basics and work from there.

Remove the 2 wires from the Cut-Out and place a screw and nut through the holes tightly and place a bit of tape around the connection to keep it from shorting out.
BE CAREFUL, these wires will be LIVE!!
Now, remove the bulb from the bottom of the steering column and open it up.
Take your "ground jumper" and touch it to the Center terminal, the Horn should honk.
Be careful to NOT touch that jumper to any other terminal on the switch.
Next, there is a Yellow wire, THIS IS BATTERY, take one end of the jumper and clip it onto the Yellow wire. That circuit has only 2 wires on it, a Yellow and a Green wire.
Take the other end and of your jumper and touch it to the Black, which should light up the Cowl and Tail lights and Park.
Touching the jumper to the Black/Red should light up the Bright headlight, touching the Black/Green should light up the Low headlight.

Now, make sure you have good grounds on all the lights to be lit, if this works, there is something off in the switch, if not, we will work from there.

This is the beginning of the troubleshooting, if you skip this part, you will need to do it sometime unless you find another problem.
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Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
Never neglect an erection
Never trust a fart
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Tom - I'll try that. It's a whole lot simpler than Dawizards method!

Dawizard - If you decide to make that house call I'll treat you to some good Tex-Mex tacos!! Haha. I guess I got my thanksgiving project waiting for me. I'll report back what I find. Thanks again. It's much appreciated.
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Old 11-23-2016, 09:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Morning. I woke up early to work on this and I got some info. First was the horn test. My horn normally blows strong but when I did the test I could hear a click in the horn but nothing else. I hooked it back up that way it was before the test now the horn doesn't blow! The second test was successful. The rear lamps lit up. The third test was not. No headlamp bulb lit up. I even had a ground jumper on the shell to help with grounding. I'm gonna replace the bulbs and clean all the contacts in the switch. Might take a while because I don't think I can get these bulbs locally. Maybe the park bulb but I'm not sure about the low/bright bulb. As far as the horn goes, is there something inside the horn that could have burned up?
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

STUDY the wiring diagram, CLOSELY & you'll probably discover where the problem might be.
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

One screw to remove the horn cover, then you can put a coupe drops of oil on the shaft felts. The other screw on the rear of the horn is to adjust the shaft pressure against the horn diaphram. One click can make the horn spin, or not spin. Your's may need to be turned CCW one or two clicks.
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
STUDY the wiring diagram, CLOSELY & you'll probably discover where the problem might be.
Bill W.
No DAD its way more complicated than that...
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:31 AM   #16
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Barber, did you disconnect the wires off the Cut-out before starting all this this morning?

If not, you may have a generator trying to be a motor and screwing up all the works. What I was trying to do with my last posting was eliminate some of the other possibilities.

If your horn was working when you started before the restoration, it isn't broke, the problem is somewhere else.

Troubleshooting is a step by step process, if you skip a step it screws up the whole process.

Now, tell me, what is the voltage on the Yellow wire on the light switch? But first, remove and screw together the 2 wires off the Cut-out.

J.C.
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New owner of '28 Tudor
Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
Never neglect an erection
Never trust a fart
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Yes. I did remove those cut out wires. When I get home after work I'll test the volts. I'll also post some pics. Maybe that will help give a visual.
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Hey Barber, sorry I sounded kinda short on the last post. It is possible that while you were testing you may have taken the top charge off the battery. While you are doing all this testing, it may help things out to place the charger on the battery and at least bring it up to full while this is ongoing.

One thing also to think about is, when you replace the wires on the Cut-out, be sure to take a jumper and short across the in and out terminals of the Cut-out, this will ensure the generator is properly polarized.

J.C. ....still thinking about your electrical problems.
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New owner of '28 Tudor
Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
Never neglect an erection
Never trust a fart
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

For anyone searching for a "GOOD" electrical ground:

1. First: From past experiences, it appears that about ninety-nine percent (99%) of causes as to why Model A headlights and tail lights do not work and function properly is because of a poor, or absolutely no clean metal to clean metal ground.

2. Second: Why continue to waste valuable time cutting & stripping sections of electrical wires, attaching wire connectors, and running connecting ground wires to "NO" ground?

3. Third: Pay attention to Mr. Tom W's reply no. 9, which is the quick & proper way to find a good ground when all parts of metal is covered with paint, rust, rat fur or whatever ........ i.e., use a volt meter to "verify" and establish a "definite" and clean, "unpainted" metal location for connecting to a good ground on both ends of each ground wire.

4. Volt meters are like George Washington and not at all like our doubtful unreliable journalist's who make false predictions in the NY Times ..... if a volt meter tells you found a good ground on both ends of your ground wire ..... volt meters like old George, never told a lie ..... or something like that. LOL

Hope this helps to "very quickly" light up your Model A lights once and for all.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 11-23-2016 at 12:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Ya know, I just had a brain fart and stunk up the whole room.

Let's take this one step back and check where the yellow wire is hooked to the cable atop the Starter Switch, First be sure there is no crud around this connection, and be sure it is tight.

This could be a starting point for voltage loss if the connection isn't clean and tight.

J.C.
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New owner of '28 Tudor
Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
Never neglect an erection
Never trust a fart
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Will do all the suggestions as soon as I can and report back.
Dawizard- the starter connections look clean and good to me. I just thought of another question. As I said before my horn used to blow strong and loud before the test. So if it was working does that mean it has a good ground thru the bar and fenders to frame? Or is it grounded thru one of the wires ?
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

It's grounded thru the wire from the horn button.

Bob
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Old 11-23-2016, 03:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//pa View Post
No DAD its way more complicated than that...
Yes, I know, but you MUST understand the circuitry, before you can even INTELLIGENTLY use a simple TEST LIGHT
In 3 minutes & 37 seconds, with a test light, the problem/problems, can be located!
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:05 AM   #24
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

The voltage reading is low but is consistent from the battery to the switch. Directly from the battery reads 4.12v. Every contact reads the same from starter- fuse- coil- box- cut out- yellow wire on switch. I did some cleaning on the terminals and wires and I got more lights working but not correctly. With lever in park position, no headlamps but semi bright tail lamps. In the off position, everything is off. In the low beam position, headlamps are on but tail lamp has only one led lit. In the high beam position, the park lamp bulbs both light up and the rear lamp is semi bright again. No brake light in any position.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:08 AM   #25
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

If you only measure 4.12 volts, then it sounds like your battery has a shorted cell.
If it has a shorted cell, then the battery charger should show full scale charge and trip the thermal circuit breaker.
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

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If it has a shorted cell, then the battery charger should show full scale charge and trip the thermal circuit breaker.
I don't understand that last part. So if I hook up the charger you're saying it will show full charge confirming I have a shorted cell? And the circuit breaker is in the charger?
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

*rolls eyes* Ok, first of all, your battery is FUBAR, and yes, the thermal overload protector is inside the charger.

Now, while 4.2v is enough to dimly light an incandescent light bulb, it is barely enough to fire off an LED, let alone all of them with a light bulb too.

So, the indication that you had with all the LEDs lit means that the other bulbs on the circuit are not hooked up, or "open" because they are not taking away voltage/current from the LEDs.

Get a good charged battery and start at the beginning. When a light doesn't light, take it out, and replace it with a "known" good bulb and check again. Take apart the headlight plugs and clean with a bit of fine emery cloth, and do the same with the tail light sockets.

Then post what happens.

J.C.
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New owner of '28 Tudor
Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
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Never trust a fart
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Quote:
I don't understand that last part. So if I hook up the charger you're saying it will show full charge confirming I have a shorted cell? And the circuit breaker is in the charger?
Depends on the charger.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Quote:
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I don't understand that last part. So if I hook up the charger you're saying it will show full charge confirming I have a shorted cell? And the circuit breaker is in the charger?
I have 4 or 5 battery chargers, and they are all 4 to 6 amp with a meter showing the amps going into the battery. A low very battery may have 5.9 volts, so the meter may show 6 amps on my 6 amp charger. Once the battery is charged to 6.1 volts the amps will taper back to maybe 3 amps. A fully charged battery will be about 6.4 volts, and the charger will only show about a 1 amp charge.

If a battery with a shorted cell is placed on the charger, then the charger is trying to push 7 volts into a 4.15 volt battery, and this will peg the meter. The same thing will happen if I flip the switch to 12 volts and use that on a 6 volt battery.

All my chargers have an internal circuit breaker, so if the charge is too high the circuit breaker will cut the power rather than let the battery charger overheat.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

When i wire a car from scratch i start at the battery, check the voltage i also use a battery disconnect switch ground from battery to switch switch to engine then engine to frame and body if you have this test each light wiring for proper voltage with your ohmmeter test as you wire can save some head scratching later,i also test lights to make sure hot is not grounding out as well i am running 12v neg ground also.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:09 PM   #31
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Thank you Tom and DA for that detailed info. Electrical is definitely not my forte. I appreciate y'all being patient with me. I have the bulbs ordered so I'm waiting on those but in the meantime I got the battery charged and reading 6.3v so I hooked everything up according to wiring diagram and took a drive. A block down the road my fuse popped. So I'm assuming that yellow wire in the switch was feeding power to other wires that had resistance due to bad or no connections and that's why the fuse blew. I hope my reasoning doesn't make me look more of a dunce. So I unhooked it and took it for another stroll and the new fuse didn't pop. So I guess I'll wait on the bulbs and start from scratch at the battery as suggested. Thanks again
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:54 AM   #32
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

FWIW:

Just one (1) opinion:

Reply no. 23 intelligently recommending a circuit diagram appears to be about as important as having a diagram or a map of Europe during, and immediately after the WWII Normandy Invasion.

Behind scratching and sitting on the Normandy Beaches eating K-Rations during WWII without a map would have proved futile.

Not knowing the diagrammatic trails of Model A electricity & Model A grounds also always leads to weeks of Model A owner behind scratching & raw behind irritation.

Just hope this helps someone to listen to Mr. Bill Willamson's advice in reply no. 23.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 11-25-2016 at 12:55 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Good news! I got my lights working. I also have that colored wiring diagram that y'all have been referring to and every time I stared at it I just knew it was hooked up right. Especially with being such a simple setup. As someone stated there's only 7 or 8 connections. So I took yalls advice to start from the beginning and meticulously inspect every connection. Well lo and behold I find the culprit is crossed wires on the headlamp conduit connections. 2 wires were not in the correct location on the little black ferrules inside the conduit. Thank you again to everybody that posted to help me especially Dawizard and Tom for being the most patient with me. I'm very grateful.



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Old 11-25-2016, 02:11 AM   #34
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Great news Barber, glad to have helped. Most times it is the simplest things that throw you for a loop.

I have learned that troubleshooting is just a matter of starting at the beginning and working to the fix.

Well done!
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New owner of '28 Tudor
Previously owned;
'30 Sport Coupe
'28 left brake ccPickup
'31 SW Town Sedan
'28 AA Stake Bed
'30 Cabriolet
'42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan

"If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer.
If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!"

Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit.
It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

Never pass up a bathroom
Never neglect an erection
Never trust a fart
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Old 11-26-2016, 06:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Thanks for staying "thru" the opportunity presented and letting us know it's fixed.
Paul in CT
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:05 AM   #36
Barber31
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

No problem Paul. I'll also work on going through spelling out complete words and try not to be in such a hurry. Sorry.
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Old 12-31-2023, 01:59 PM   #37
pawillie
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

got tail light tail running light won't go off. Burns always.
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Old 12-31-2023, 02:27 PM   #38
bobbader
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Default Re: Headlight/tail light problems

Sure it's not the stop light and the switch is not shutting off?
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