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Old 03-17-2021, 11:39 AM   #21
KULTULZ
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Post Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

We will have to agree to disagree.

No foul, no harm.
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Old 03-17-2021, 02:14 PM   #22
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamar Wadsworth View Post
Good info, thanks!
Seems like this has gotten a bit off track with responses, and since you are sticking with a drum to drum master cylinder this video may give you a few pointers being that the Mustang drum/drum master is used in our 50's Fords. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeBDLoGQ79Q&t=71s I love this tool ! https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...der-92924.html So when I did my brakes on my '54 it was about 108 outside in Phoenix and the garage fridge had cold PBR I somehow forgot to do the bench bleed so I thought I would turn on my compressor hook up the tool and give it a shot starting with the passenger side rear bleeder then moving to the drivers side rear and guess what ? No air and a firm pedal in less than 10 minutes went ahead and did the fronts just because all the wheels cylinders were all new and still no air and a firm pedal. A lot of guys will also convert the old Ford troublesome brake sender to a GM style that works off the pedal by fabricating a simple bracket check the 1952-59 Ford Social Group for pictures of those from the members.

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Old 03-17-2021, 04:46 PM   #23
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Question Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Originally Posted by JeffB2 View Post

Seems like this has gotten a bit off track with responses...
How has this thread gotten off-track in your opinion?
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Old 03-19-2021, 03:02 AM   #24
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

When you start throwing prop valves and residuals into the mix which he doesn't need with a manual dual master for drums it can get confusing for some,just saying. Sometimes the KISS method is best.
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Old 03-19-2021, 03:20 AM   #25
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Post Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

What the insertion of that reference was intended to do is warn people of how they can be taken advantage of by unscrupulous and/or un-knowledgeable vendors.
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:02 AM   #26
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB2 View Post
When you start throwing prop valves and residuals into the mix which he doesn't need with a manual dual master for drums it can get confusing for some,just saying. Sometimes the KISS method is best.
Very simple works for me. There is no reason for a 65 year old car to have a proportioning valve, a basic brass block does the trick.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:07 AM   #27
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Question Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Originally Posted by bobss396 View Post

There is no reason for a 65 year old car to have a proportioning valve, a basic brass block does the trick.
Are you referring to DRUM/DRUM or DISC/DRUM?
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Old 03-25-2021, 07:29 AM   #28
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
Are you referring to DRUM/DRUM or DISC/DRUM?
Drum-drum for sure. I used a distribution block from Summit with my front disc swap. It has a rear bias adjuster, which I have never had to touch. It runs wide open.
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Old 03-25-2021, 07:49 AM   #29
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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I used a distribution block from Summit with my front disc swap. It has a rear bias adjuster, which I have never had to touch. It runs wide open.
You are referring to what type of 'rear bias adjuster'?
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Old 03-28-2021, 07:34 AM   #30
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
You are referring to what type of 'rear bias adjuster'?
Similar to this one from Summit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-...8AAOSwmtZfKZiw
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Old 03-28-2021, 10:31 AM   #31
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Question Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Now wait a minute ...

First you say there is no need for a PPV on a car (DRUM/DRUM I a$$-u-me), then you state you only used a distribution block.

Now you are saying you are using an ADJ BIAS VALVE on your DRUM/DRUM fully opened?

You have a DRUM/DRUM DUAL RESERVOIR MC upgrade?

The last photo below is a FORD (Weatherhead) free-standing PDV (Pressure Differential Valve/Distribution Block of the seventies period (no PROPORTIONING/METERING VALVE). If you do not want the WARNING LAMP, don't use the circuit.

EDIT - ONE MORE TIME

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobss396 View Post

Very simple works for me. There is no reason for a 65 year old car to have a proportioning valve, a basic brass block does the trick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobss396 View Post

Drum-drum for sure. I used a distribution block from Summit with my front disc swap. It has a rear bias adjuster, which I have never had to touch. It runs wide open.

Are you saying you have an early disc/drum upgrade with no valving on the street?

You know, this why SEMA has to continually fight the FEDS who want to put a stop to owner repair/modifications.
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Last edited by KULTULZ; 03-28-2021 at 06:36 PM. Reason: CRS
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Old 03-29-2021, 07:43 PM   #32
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

He said it was wide open
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Old 03-29-2021, 07:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

If you want the skinny on what master to use, go to the experts make and sell conversion parts. Try Engineered Components Inc (ECI) in Conn. for advice. They make all kinds of kits for brake conversions.
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Old 03-30-2021, 12:00 AM   #34
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Question Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Originally Posted by paul2748 View Post

He said it was wide open
Who's he and what is wide open?
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Old 03-30-2021, 12:07 AM   #35
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Thumbs up Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul2748 View Post

If you want the skinny on what master to use, go to the experts make and sell conversion parts. Try Engineered Components Inc (ECI) in Conn. for advice. They make all kinds of kits for brake conversions.
Just what is needed, another kit assembler offering GM components for a FORD. Wonder how much of it is off-shore?

That CORVETTE MC goes well with the INTERSTATE BATTERY and STANT radiator cap.
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Old 03-31-2021, 07:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Quote:
Function and Purpose of the Proportioning Valve

The proportioning valve typically connects the master cylinder to the rest of the braking system, but sometimes it is independent of the cylinder. This valve is necessary for optimizing front-to-rear bias, also referred to as brake balance. It is a spring-loaded component that activates when fluid pressure builds when you step on the brake pedal. Then, the valve’s plunger unseats and fluid rushes into the calibrated range. Once this happens, the spring gets compressed and the plunger blocks the fluid from passing through. Even pressure distribution among the front and rear of your vehicle is important for safe and reliable braking performance.

Signs of a Failing Proportioning Valve -

Just like any other part of your car, the proportioning valve may eventually fail. There are a few different ways to tell this is happening. First, you might notice your car is taking a nose dive when you suddenly apply the brakes. Then your car may not stop fast enough. If your rear wheels lock up easily, especially when you drive on wet surfaces, it is a good sign your proportioning valve is going bad. You can also read about more signs your braking system isn’t functioning properly.

Causes of Valve Failure

If you sense your valve is failing or not operating properly, you might be wondering how this happened. Sometimes proportioning valves simply fail after a long time of driving. Other times, you might have caused the problem by making a modification that impacts your brake balance. Here are some modifications that can influence your front-to-rear bias.

Modifications that can increase front bias:
  • Increased diameters of front caliper pistons
  • Increased friction of front pad coefficient
  • Increased diameter of front rotor
  • Decreased diameters of rear caliper pistons
  • Decreased friction of rear pad coefficient
  • Decreased diameter of rear rotor
  • Less sticky tires
  • Less weight on the front axle
  • A loaded rear axle
  • Lowered vehicle causing a lower center of gravity


Modifications that can increase rear bias:
  • Increased diameters of rear caliper pistons
  • Increased friction of rear pad coefficient
  • Increased diameter of rear rotor
  • Decreased diameters of front caliper pistons
  • Decreased friction of front pad coefficient
  • Decreased diameter of front rotor
  • More sticky tires
  • More weight on the front axle
  • An unloaded rear axle
  • Raised vehicle causing a higher center of gravity
SOURCE - https://www.sundevilauto.com/what-do...for-my-brakes/
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Old 03-31-2021, 09:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post

While most of the above info on proportioning valves is correct, the actual operation is not. Fluid is never "blocked", but is delivered based on the percentage value of the valve once the "crack point" pressure is exceeded.


As for drum brakes, some proportioning could have preceded disc brakes if the earlier D.O.T. brake performance requirements had been much stricter, like those starting in the mid '70s.


A good example of the possible need for a drum prop valve is when using late duo-servo rear drum brakes with obsolete non-servo front drums, something done often with old (pre-'49) Fords.

Last edited by V8 Bob; 03-31-2021 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 04-01-2021, 12:32 AM   #38
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Post Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

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While most of the above info on proportioning valves is correct, the actual operation is not. Fluid is never "blocked", but is delivered based on the percentage value of the valve once the "crack point" pressure is exceeded.
Can we agree on restricted flow as pressure increases at the knee point?

GM did use a PPV on some all drum applications. Makes perfect sense to me. But ABS has changed all of this.

What I am trying to point out is that the ill-conceived notion that an ADJ PPV will correct all situations. That is why they are not approved for the street. Their function is race car only.

Some of these so-called "BRAKE KIT SELLERS" are dangerous (IMO).

INFO SOURCE BELOW - https://www.brakes-shop.com/brakeped...tioning-valves
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BRAKE - VALVE - PPV Function _1.jpg (51.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg BRAKE - VALVE - PPV Function _2 - ADJ.jpg (19.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 04-01-2021, 08:08 AM   #39
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Default Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
Can we agree on restricted flow as pressure increases at the knee point?
No. The pressure is reduced to a percentage of master cylinder output. Has nothing to do with flow.


GM did use a PPV on some all drum applications. Makes perfect sense to me. But ABS has changed all of this.

What I am trying to point out is that the ill-conceived notion that an ADJ PPV will correct all situations. That is why they are not approved for the street. Their function is race car only.
Using an ADJ PPV may not correct all situations, but is a better alternative to a fixed value PPV designed for an entirely different vehicle and/or brake system. ADJ K/H PPVs were used on some mid-'60s Lincolns/T-Birds---my '32 and '40 both have one. Technically, any non-stock factory brake system or component is probably not "approved". Preventing early rear wheel slide is the important goal, period.



Some of these so-called "BRAKE KIT SELLERS" are dangerous (IMO).
Most have improved their "tech" over the years, although a couple still need improvement. What's more troubling to me is the lack of basic brake system knowledge obvious on most forums, especially dual systems, that have been around for almost 60 years!




INFO SOURCE BELOW - https://www.brakes-shop.com/brakeped...tioning-valves

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Old 04-01-2021, 09:39 AM   #40
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Post Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes

Originally Posted by KULTULZ


Can we agree on restricted flow as pressure increases at the knee point?

No. The pressure is reduced to a percentage of master cylinder output. Has nothing to do with flow.

- So a restriction in a hydraulic system will not reduce flow?

What I am trying to point out is that the ill-conceived notion that an ADJ PPV will correct all situations. That is why they are not approved for the street. Their function is race car only.

Using an ADJ PPV may not correct all situations, but is a better alternative to a fixed value PPV designed for an entirely different vehicle and/or brake system.

- You would have to figure out the newly modified braking systems and then apply a PPV to that. The best method is to study an original application and not fall for RACE CAR ONLY SYSTEMS.

ADJ K/H PPVs were used on some mid-'60s Lincolns/T-Birds

- Please give me an exact example. News to me.

Some of these so-called "BRAKE KIT SELLERS" are dangerous (IMO).

Most have improved their "tech" over the years, although a couple still need improvement.

What's more troubling to me is the lack of basic brake system knowledge obvious on most forums, especially dual systems, that have been around for almost 60 years!

- AGREED!

- And most of the advice given is even more puzzling and dangerous.





Attached Images
File Type: jpg BRAKE - VALVE - PPV- KH 2B091 _4.jpg (50.8 KB, 6 views)
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