The Ford Barn

markdtn · 11-09-2016, 08:31 AM

Yesterday I had everything ready to crank and run my newly built 8BA in my 9N tractor. Filled it with coolant. I had a leak on 1 water neck. It was pitted pretty badly, should have replaced it. I ordered another last night. I put a pan under the engine to catch the drips and fired it up. I had started it Saturday for a few seconds but I was waiting on a coolant sensor so I just ran it maybe 10 seconds Saturday, but yesterday I let it warm up. If you look carefully in the photo it is running and holding good (about 40psi) oil pressure at idle warm. No crazy noises. No leaks (other than the water neck). So I let it warm up. Now for the question. I reused the clutch that came with the engine. It looked OK. The engine came out because it had a stuck valve and a cylinder crack. I don't know much else about it, but I assumed that the clutch was OK. I adjusted it by tying the clutch pedal to the steering wheel and pulling back the clutch arm until it was against the pressure plate fingers. I moved the clevis to here and pinned it. I could not get the clutch to disengage last night. Could it be stuck? I don't see how. It has been stored indoors and clean since I installed it a few months ago. As you can see my fuel setup is not optimum so I can't get too crazy with it. I was able to get it into gear once by pushing really hard on the pedal-but I may have just got lucky. I am going to go buy a clutch set and put it in I guess. Any thoughts before I have to split this? Thanks! Also, after it cooled, I retorqued the head bolts. I have studs. I went with 60 ft-lb and only 3 moved. I know the specs say 65-70 but my machine shop said to drop back a little with studs. This is a bone stock engine so compression ratio is low. Is 60 enough or should I go more. I plan to warm up and retorque 2 more times for a total of 3.

old Tom · 11-09-2016, 08:46 AM

That looks great as good if not better the a Funk conversion. You should post this over on Yesterdays Tractor web site and let them see it.

Kurt in NJ · 11-09-2016, 08:55 AM

I have reused a lot of clutches, but I check the disc runout, sometimes they have been bent and wobble a lot---i put the disc on the trans input shaft and spin it, if i see wobble i look close---sometimes the hub---cushion springs have a lot of play, some are wharped, some have a lot of thickness variation---I have seen rust inside the disc between the lining and metal cushion springs

did you have trouble mating the 1/2s, i have seen pressure plate levers bent, disc hubs damaged where the splines are burred causing the disc to not float back on the spline making it drag on the flywheel

corvette8n · 11-09-2016, 09:08 AM

It could be stuck, I always block my clutch pedal down, even if it stored for only 1 day. Great looking conversion on your "N".

markdtn · 11-09-2016, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

I have reused a lot of clutches, but I check the disc runout, sometimes they have been bent and wobble a lot---i put the disc on the trans input shaft and spin it, if i see wobble i look close---sometimes the hub---cushion springs have a lot of play, some are wharped, some have a lot of thickness variation---I have seen rust inside the disc between the lining and metal cushion springs

did you have trouble mating the 1/2s, i have seen pressure plate levers bent, disc hubs damaged where the splines are burred causing the disc to not float back on the spline making it drag on the flywheel

Good question. No, the halves went together very smoothly. They slid all the way in with no bolts used to pull them together.

Can't say I did a wobble test. The disc looked OK, some surface rust on it but nothing major. I am going to just bite the bullet and buy a kit. If I have to split this, I am going to replace it.

Kurt in NJ · 11-09-2016, 09:18 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

you may not get the results you want with offshore sourced "kit", perhaps sending what you have to Ft Wayne clutch---they have a good reputation, i have not used them-- yet, I have enough for my needs in used/NOS originals, and have the tools to take apart my own pp

markdtn · 11-09-2016, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corvette8n

It could be stuck, I always block my clutch pedal down, even if it stored for only 1 day. Great looking conversion on your "N".

I have heard about this, but don't quite understand what to do. My dad has had an NAA since 1968 and never had a problem with the clutch sticking. It sits months at a time. So you put a block of wood between the pedal and steering wheel or tie a heavy block to the pedal to hold it down?

Thank you. I am overall pleased with my conversion. What I was after was if Ford had built this in 1950 (except I had to use an electric fan). My next dilemma is exhaust; I want to run dual exhaust under and out the back. Do I go straight pipes? Do I run NAA (1 5/8 pipe) mufflers and put them in the stockish 9N/2N/8N location? If so, do I pony up for the FoMoCo stamped ones or just generics at less than half the price? For now I am going to go straight pipes out the back. I can add mufflers later.

Bruce Lancaster · 11-09-2016, 11:03 AM

Something to think about: What throwout bearing does the Tractor use? Is it a '32-48 type, either lube hose or sealed, as I suspect?
If so it is incompatible with '49 up pressure plate EXCEPT for truck ones or '49-50 Merc.
All Ford passenger and Mercs from '51 had a smaller throwout bearing which takes longer pressure plate fingers so everything matches up. Early bearing on the common late pressure plate can bind up as the fingers are pushed down.

corvette8n · 11-09-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdtn

I have heard about this, but don't quite understand what to do. My dad has had an NAA since 1968 and never had a problem with the clutch sticking. It sits months at a time. So you put a block of wood between the pedal and steering wheel or tie a heavy block to the pedal to hold it down?

Thank you. I am overall pleased with my conversion. What I was after was if Ford had built this in 1950 (except I had to use an electric fan). My next dilemma is exhaust; I want to run dual exhaust under and out the back. Do I go straight pipes? Do I run NAA (1 5/8 pipe) mufflers and put them in the stockish 9N/2N/8N location? If so, do I pony up for the FoMoCo stamped ones or just generics at less than half the price? For now I am going to go straight pipes out the back. I can add mufflers later.

I have an 8N and I slide a 1x3 between the pedal and the bottom of transmission after I push pedal down.
I think straight pipes would be cool, some of the after market mufflers rust out quickly.

markdtn · 11-09-2016, 12:53 PM

Clutch is stuck. I went home at lunch and fired it up. Drove down the street with the pedal pushed down. Hit the right brake-you have to be careful with that. No luck. Came back home and (gently) ran into a tree with the pedal pushed. It just kills the engine. So I went and ordered a clutch kit. I will do it right, what I should have done to begin with. I will let you all know what happens next week.

On a bright note, I got to drive it and it runs nice. I am quite happy with it.

markdtn · 11-09-2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Something to think about: What throwout bearing does the Tractor use? Is it a '32-48 type, either lube hose or sealed, as I suspect?
If so it is incompatible with '49 up pressure plate EXCEPT for truck ones or '49-50 Merc.
All Ford passenger and Mercs from '51 had a smaller throwout bearing which takes longer pressure plate fingers so everything matches up. Early bearing on the common late pressure plate can bind up as the fingers are pushed down.

Using '50 F1 Truck flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate. Reused original 9N tractor throwout bearing.

rotorwrench · 11-09-2016, 01:00 PM

I know all those old N tractors used the same basic clutch but I don't have any idea what the Funk brothers or the later conversions used. The Ns could use the 09A 7563 cover with the 91A 7550 9-inch disk but as Bruce mentioned, you would have to make it fit an 8BA type flywheel.

I've heard of multiple problems with the new off shore clutch components. I trust the stuff overhauled by Ft Wayne Clutch.

Carefull with that front bolster. They are easily damaged by bumping into stuff.

The F1s could have a 10-inch or an 11-inch depending on how it is configured.

hook00pad · 11-09-2016, 04:25 PM

That 1" thick adapter plate may be keeping the throwout bearing from disengaging the pressure plate. Has that been considered?

rotorwrench · 11-09-2016, 05:46 PM

I looked at the Stauffer V8 site and they mentioned using either the 10 or 11 inch Long type clutch from an F1 for the conversion but I don't know if theirs is like the awesome Henry conversion or not. Either clutch would have the same spline as the N trans input (1 3/8"-10 spline). The adapter plate looks like it puts the 8BA at about the same dimension as the little 4-banger and they had to have it for the starter too. That's the only real tricky part is cutting that housing so the starter will work. The Ns use the same throw out bearing as the early V8s did.

Markdtn
Did you pull the clutch off and inspect the pressure plate and disc or did you just leave it in place? You also need to be certain that the pilot bushing or bearing is in good condition in that flywheel.

markdtn · 11-10-2016, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I looked at the Stauffer V8 site and they mentioned using either the 10 or 11 inch Long type clutch from an F1 for the conversion but I don't know if theirs is like the awesome Henry conversion or not. Either clutch would have the same spline as the N trans input (1 3/8"-10 spline). The adapter plate looks like it puts the 8BA at about the same dimension as the little 4-banger and they had to have it for the starter too. That's the only real tricky part is cutting that housing so the starter will work. The Ns use the same throw out bearing as the early V8s did.

Markdtn
Did you pull the clutch off and inspect the pressure plate and disc or did you just leave it in place? You also need to be certain that the pilot bushing or bearing is in good condition in that flywheel.

The Awesome Henry kit spacer does take into consideration the flange thickness on the original 4-cyl engine. The kit says most times you don't even have to adjust the clutch rod.

I bought the engine and transmission from a '50 F1 truck that had been pulled out and left outside uncovered for a few years. I tore it down and completely rebuilt it. I found that it had a stuck valve and a crack between cylinder and valve. I ASSUMED that meant that the clutch would be good. When it came time to put it all back together, I cleaned the flywheel with a flapper wheel and put the original clutch/pressure plate in. The clutch disc looked OK, there were still nice grooves between the friction material. You can feel the throwout bearing hit the fingers on the pressure plate. As I posted above I did all I could yesterday to get it unstuck. I just got cheap and lazy. I think there was a poll about stuff you can't see lately.....I knew it was marginal but 1-didn't want to spend more $ on it (flathead builds done right are expensive!) 2-wanted to use original parts that I thought were OK and 3-a 10" clutch is overkill for a tractor that had a 9" one originally.

Anyway, I am going to split it and replace the throwout, pilot bearing, clutch, and pressure plate. I am going to have the flywheel surfaced like I should have done in the first place. I will probably also have a new starter ring installed too as it is pretty chewed up (but working fine). Then there should be no issues. I will also start blocking the clutch. I just never thought this would be an issue in my dry garage.

Here is a before and after on the engine

rotorwrench · 11-10-2016, 01:38 PM

Sometimes you have to spend more now so you don't have to spend even more down the road. We still don't know what you have in there for a clutch. An old 9-inch should be used with a 9-inch PP. If you get the flywheel surfaced, you can make certain you have the PP for the disk you are going to use. A 10-inch Long type 8BA clutch is the same as the 59A era 10-inch clutch and it isn't overkill for a car or a tractor unless it doesn't fit for some reason. The 11-inch is overkill. 8BA cars had the 9 1/2-inch Long type flywheel, clutch, & disk but you can't bolt up a 9-inch PP from an early V8 or N type tractor on there without drilling the flywheel. If you try a 9-inch disk with a 9 1/2-inch PP you will be losing even more disk surface area. All the 9 1/2-inch clutches only had a 1-inch 10-spline disk unless you get one modified for a 1 3/8" 10-spline hub.

Also, make sure the disk is on the correct way. It's too easy to put it on inside out and that could lock things up if it has that type of disk hub.

markdtn · 11-10-2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Sometimes you have to spend more now so you don't have to spend even more down the road. We still don't know what you have in there for a clutch. An old 9-inch should be used with a 9-inch PP. If you get the flywheel surfaced, you can make certain you have the PP for the disk you are going to use. A 10-inch Long type 8BA clutch is the same as the 59A era 10-inch clutch and it isn't overkill for a car or a tractor unless it doesn't fit for some reason. The 11-inch is overkill. 8BA cars had the 9 1/2-inch Long type flywheel, clutch, & disk but you can't bolt up a 9-inch PP from an early V8 or N type tractor on there without drilling the flywheel. If you try a 9-inch disk with a 9 1/2-inch PP you will be losing even more disk surface area. All the 9 1/2-inch clutches only had a 1-inch 10-spline disk unless you get one modified for a 1 3/8" 10-spline hub.

Also, make sure the disk is on the correct way. It's too easy to put it on inside out and that could lock things up if it has that type of disk hub.

I have a 10" Long style clutch that came from the '50 F1 8BA truck. the only thing not 8BA truck is the original tractor throwout bearing (which I think is the same as an 8BA). I hope to split it tonight and I have found a place that will do the flywheel turning and replace the starter ring for about $75.

markdtn · 11-10-2016, 10:40 PM

Well, I was wrong. I split it apart and pulled the clutch. This setup was together when I bought the engine and it had a 3-sp floor shift trans behind it. It is an 11" clutch. I see why I was having problems. The fingers were way in. Not sure why I didn't notice that when I built this, but I didn't. I put it back on and remembered that I had to use long bolts to pull it in and then swap to short ones. When it is bolted all the way flat, the PP fingers almost touch the disc.

I have a dr appointment in the morning and after that I am going to take the clutch disc, pressure plate, and flywheel to a local clutch shop. Maybe they can tell me what I need. Or should I try to find a 10" setup?

Here are some photos

Bob C · 11-11-2016, 11:16 AM

I think I see your problem, you have the wrong bolts holding the flywheel.
You are missing the flywheel dowel retainer 7RA-7609 and the special thin
head self-locking bolts 350816-S.
With the thick head bolts and lock washers the clutch disc center is probably
hitting the bolt heads and holding the disc away from the flywheel.

Bob

rotorwrench · 11-11-2016, 11:33 AM

The pressure may also be corroded up inside. You can get it set up for either the 9-inch or the 10-inch Long type if you prefer those. Either would be just fine and both are more common than the alternatives. The 11-inch will work but does have some pretty strong springs so it takes a bit more leg work than either of the smaller diameters.

Those bolts could be a problem as was mentioned. I don't know if ARP makes some with the low profile dimension but it might be worth checking. The early V8s all had about the same flywheel bolt & ring set up. The 8BA used the ones with the deep depressions in the head of the bolt with no safety wire (P/N 350816S).

11-09-2016, 08:31 AM	#1
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Yesterday I had everything ready to crank and run my newly built 8BA in my 9N tractor. Filled it with coolant. I had a leak on 1 water neck. It was pitted pretty badly, should have replaced it. I ordered another last night. I put a pan under the engine to catch the drips and fired it up. I had started it Saturday for a few seconds but I was waiting on a coolant sensor so I just ran it maybe 10 seconds Saturday, but yesterday I let it warm up. If you look carefully in the photo it is running and holding good (about 40psi) oil pressure at idle warm. No crazy noises. No leaks (other than the water neck). So I let it warm up. Now for the question. I reused the clutch that came with the engine. It looked OK. The engine came out because it had a stuck valve and a cylinder crack. I don't know much else about it, but I assumed that the clutch was OK. I adjusted it by tying the clutch pedal to the steering wheel and pulling back the clutch arm until it was against the pressure plate fingers. I moved the clevis to here and pinned it. I could not get the clutch to disengage last night. Could it be stuck? I don't see how. It has been stored indoors and clean since I installed it a few months ago. As you can see my fuel setup is not optimum so I can't get too crazy with it. I was able to get it into gear once by pushing really hard on the pedal-but I may have just got lucky. I am going to go buy a clutch set and put it in I guess. Any thoughts before I have to split this? Thanks! Also, after it cooled, I retorqued the head bolts. I have studs. I went with 60 ft-lb and only 3 moved. I know the specs say 65-70 but my machine shop said to drop back a little with studs. This is a bone stock engine so compression ratio is low. Is 60 enough or should I go more. I plan to warm up and retorque 2 more times for a total of 3.

11-09-2016, 08:46 AM	#2
old Tom Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 195	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue That looks great as good if not better the a Funk conversion. You should post this over on Yesterdays Tractor web site and let them see it.

11-09-2016, 08:55 AM	#3
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I have reused a lot of clutches, but I check the disc runout, sometimes they have been bent and wobble a lot---i put the disc on the trans input shaft and spin it, if i see wobble i look close---sometimes the hub---cushion springs have a lot of play, some are wharped, some have a lot of thickness variation---I have seen rust inside the disc between the lining and metal cushion springs did you have trouble mating the 1/2s, i have seen pressure plate levers bent, disc hubs damaged where the splines are burred causing the disc to not float back on the spline making it drag on the flywheel

11-09-2016, 09:08 AM	#4
corvette8n Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: 36 miles north of Albany NY Posts: 2,952	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue It could be stuck, I always block my clutch pedal down, even if it stored for only 1 day. Great looking conversion on your "N".

11-09-2016, 09:18 AM	#6
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) you may not get the results you want with offshore sourced "kit", perhaps sending what you have to Ft Wayne clutch---they have a good reputation, i have not used them-- yet, I have enough for my needs in used/NOS originals, and have the tools to take apart my own pp

11-09-2016, 11:03 AM	#8
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Something to think about: What throwout bearing does the Tractor use? Is it a '32-48 type, either lube hose or sealed, as I suspect? If so it is incompatible with '49 up pressure plate EXCEPT for truck ones or '49-50 Merc. All Ford passenger and Mercs from '51 had a smaller throwout bearing which takes longer pressure plate fingers so everything matches up. Early bearing on the common late pressure plate can bind up as the fingers are pushed down.

11-09-2016, 12:53 PM	#10
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Clutch is stuck. I went home at lunch and fired it up. Drove down the street with the pedal pushed down. Hit the right brake-you have to be careful with that. No luck. Came back home and (gently) ran into a tree with the pedal pushed. It just kills the engine. So I went and ordered a clutch kit. I will do it right, what I should have done to begin with. I will let you all know what happens next week. On a bright note, I got to drive it and it runs nice. I am quite happy with it.

11-09-2016, 01:00 PM	#12
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I know all those old N tractors used the same basic clutch but I don't have any idea what the Funk brothers or the later conversions used. The Ns could use the 09A 7563 cover with the 91A 7550 9-inch disk but as Bruce mentioned, you would have to make it fit an 8BA type flywheel. I've heard of multiple problems with the new off shore clutch components. I trust the stuff overhauled by Ft Wayne Clutch. Carefull with that front bolster. They are easily damaged by bumping into stuff. The F1s could have a 10-inch or an 11-inch depending on how it is configured. Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-09-2016 at 01:14 PM.

11-09-2016, 04:25 PM	#13
hook00pad Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 105	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue That 1" thick adapter plate may be keeping the throwout bearing from disengaging the pressure plate. Has that been considered?

11-09-2016, 05:46 PM	#14
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I looked at the Stauffer V8 site and they mentioned using either the 10 or 11 inch Long type clutch from an F1 for the conversion but I don't know if theirs is like the awesome Henry conversion or not. Either clutch would have the same spline as the N trans input (1 3/8"-10 spline). The adapter plate looks like it puts the 8BA at about the same dimension as the little 4-banger and they had to have it for the starter too. That's the only real tricky part is cutting that housing so the starter will work. The Ns use the same throw out bearing as the early V8s did. Markdtn Did you pull the clutch off and inspect the pressure plate and disc or did you just leave it in place? You also need to be certain that the pilot bushing or bearing is in good condition in that flywheel.

11-10-2016, 01:38 PM	#16
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Sometimes you have to spend more now so you don't have to spend even more down the road. We still don't know what you have in there for a clutch. An old 9-inch should be used with a 9-inch PP. If you get the flywheel surfaced, you can make certain you have the PP for the disk you are going to use. A 10-inch Long type 8BA clutch is the same as the 59A era 10-inch clutch and it isn't overkill for a car or a tractor unless it doesn't fit for some reason. The 11-inch is overkill. 8BA cars had the 9 1/2-inch Long type flywheel, clutch, & disk but you can't bolt up a 9-inch PP from an early V8 or N type tractor on there without drilling the flywheel. If you try a 9-inch disk with a 9 1/2-inch PP you will be losing even more disk surface area. All the 9 1/2-inch clutches only had a 1-inch 10-spline disk unless you get one modified for a 1 3/8" 10-spline hub. Also, make sure the disk is on the correct way. It's too easy to put it on inside out and that could lock things up if it has that type of disk hub. Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-10-2016 at 01:44 PM.

11-10-2016, 10:40 PM	#18
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Well, I was wrong. I split it apart and pulled the clutch. This setup was together when I bought the engine and it had a 3-sp floor shift trans behind it. It is an 11" clutch. I see why I was having problems. The fingers were way in. Not sure why I didn't notice that when I built this, but I didn't. I put it back on and remembered that I had to use long bolts to pull it in and then swap to short ones. When it is bolted all the way flat, the PP fingers almost touch the disc. I have a dr appointment in the morning and after that I am going to take the clutch disc, pressure plate, and flywheel to a local clutch shop. Maybe they can tell me what I need. Or should I try to find a 10" setup? Here are some photos

11-11-2016, 11:16 AM	#19
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,754	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I think I see your problem, you have the wrong bolts holding the flywheel. You are missing the flywheel dowel retainer 7RA-7609 and the special thin head self-locking bolts 350816-S. With the thick head bolts and lock washers the clutch disc center is probably hitting the bolt heads and holding the disc away from the flywheel. Bob

11-11-2016, 11:33 AM	#20
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue The pressure may also be corroded up inside. You can get it set up for either the 9-inch or the 10-inch Long type if you prefer those. Either would be just fine and both are more common than the alternatives. The 11-inch will work but does have some pretty strong springs so it takes a bit more leg work than either of the smaller diameters. Those bolts could be a problem as was mentioned. I don't know if ARP makes some with the low profile dimension but it might be worth checking. The early V8s all had about the same flywheel bolt & ring set up. The 8BA used the ones with the deep depressions in the head of the bolt with no safety wire (P/N 350816S).