The Ford Barn

markdtn · 11-11-2016, 12:01 PM

To make a long story short:
-took clutch kit back to Oreilleys
-went downtown to clutch shop and traded my old clutch and PP for a rebuilt one for (1/3) less than the parts store one. Lesson learned, buy local.
-found out flywheel was un-usable, it had a bad hole and can't be helicoiled (too close to edge) AND you cant reverse the starter ring AND his suppliers don't even list one for 49-53.
-Off to the machine shop that does flatheads. He didn't have a flywheel for a 11" clutch. Bought a used flywheel for a 10" clutch.
-Back to clutch shop. Traded in 11" disc and PP for a 10" version and had the new flywheel faced.
-Took the rest of the day off and am going to put it all together with correct fasteners.

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions.

V8COOPMAN · 11-11-2016, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdtn

To make a long story short:

-Off to the machine shop that does flatheads. He didn't have a flywheel for a 11" clutch. Bought a used flywheel for a 10" clutch.

As a precaution, so as to hopefully make sure you won't have to pull it all apart yet again, MAKE SURE you've got the correct flywheel.....FOR AN 8BA-TYPE ('49-'53) engine......NOT an early pre-'49 flywheel. The one you're looking for (8BA-type) will have it's six clutch holes drilled and threaded ALL THE WAY through the flywheel......NOT blind holes like on '48 and earlier wheels. There is a difference with reference to starter function (see difference in ring gear height). DD

1935coupe · 11-12-2016, 09:08 AM

Not trying to go too far off subject but the blocking the clutch issue made me want to touch on the subject a little. I see some grease in the bell of the trans, this is what causes problems with the clutch sticking, the thick trans oil leaks into the bell area and creates a sticky mess on the clutch then if you let the tractor set the clutch sticks. While you have it split, If you haven't already, clean the grease and replace that input seal.

markdtn · 11-14-2016, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

As a precaution, so as to hopefully make sure you won't have to pull it all apart yet again, MAKE SURE you've got the correct flywheel.....FOR AN 8BA-TYPE ('49-'53) engine......NOT an early pre-'49 flywheel. The one you're looking for (8BA-type) will have it's six clutch holes drilled and threaded ALL THE WAY through the flywheel......NOT blind holes like on '48 and earlier wheels. There is a difference with reference to starter function (see difference in ring gear height). DD

He told me this flywheel would work for an 8BA. This guy is a flathead guru. I didn't look at that. It is back together now so I cant check it. Was going to finish wiring and fire it up tonight. Just for fun, what if it is the wrong one? I did run the Bendix out and it hits the teeth nicely. If the teeth hit is that enough or is there something else? I just can't seem to get a break on this thing.

markdtn · 11-14-2016, 01:10 PM

I see the difference in thickness, however that is not the real story on starter depth. To see that it would really have to sit on a pad so you had the same depth to the rear crankshaft face. I don't know what to do. I don't want to tear it down for nothing. It will turn. The starter Bendix seemed to hit the gear OK, but I have not tried it with a battery yet. There was clearance between the flywheel and block. But this is the thing that has me wondering. It was close, really close. I don't remember the other one being that close, but maybe it was. Is there any good way to tell which style it is without taking it back out? If it spins freely and the starter works what else could go wrong? Maybe I am just paranoid now.

rotorwrench · 11-14-2016, 01:18 PM

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You an tell by looking through the starter port with the starter removed. The rings are very different in the distance from the ID to the OD as you can tell in the photo. You can also see the difference in ring location. 8BA flywheels have clutch cover bolt bores that extend all the way through the wheel where the early types don't. The starter ring distance IS the big difference. If it starts normally then it is likely OK.

markdtn · 11-14-2016, 02:23 PM

This is the only photo I took. You can't tell much. I'm hoping it is OK. I will know in a few hours.

V8COOPMAN · 11-14-2016, 03:05 PM

Hey Mark........Maybe this pic will help you determine which wheel you have. These are the two different ring gears. The LATE gear (8BA-type) is the narrow gear on the right. And, as I said up above, the 8BA wheel has the threaded clutch holes drilled completely through the flywheel....NOT blind holes. Wishing you luck! DD

Jack E/NJ · 11-14-2016, 03:30 PM

When Mark finally pulls the trigger, what's the worse that can happen if it's the earlier setup? Jack E/NJ

Bob C · 11-14-2016, 03:36 PM

I see you still don't have the dowel pin retainer under the bolts.

Bob

markdtn · 11-14-2016, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

I see you still don't have the dowel pin retainer under the bolts.

Bob

Do I need that? I have new thin head bolts and I locktited them. The original motor did not have it either. It did have safety wire on the bolts though, but the clutch shop said new bolts and locktite were acceptable. It was a very snug fit, I don't see the dowels coming out. I also have new bolts to hold on the pressure plate with the special washers between the bolt heads and plate.

V8COOPMAN · 11-14-2016, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

When Mark finally pulls the trigger, what's the worse that can happen if it's the earlier setup? Jack E/NJ

It could make some un-pleasant whining or grinding noises. The bad part is the fact that it's not fun separating that front piece of tractor from that rear piece of tractor. Mark'll get 'er goin', tho. DD

Jack E/NJ · 11-14-2016, 03:55 PM

Mine originally didn't have the pin retainers either, only the safety wire. Same on a SBC. Jack E/NJ

markdtn · 11-15-2016, 08:55 AM

Of course I had the wrong one. Got it all together and hit the starter, it won't turn. Took the starter off to look at the ring gear teeth, pulled starter apart too far and had to redo the brushes. Tried to turn the crank bolt, no go. Split it back apart, it turns. Pulled flywheel, it has blind holes and is thick-early version. Back to the shop to exchange flywheel for an 8BA version and then downtown to have it faced. I hope......

Jack E/NJ · 11-15-2016, 09:45 AM

Mark>>>It will turn. The starter Bendix seemed to hit the gear OK, but I have not tried it with a battery yet. >>>Maybe I am just paranoid now.>>>hit the starter, it won't turn. Took the starter off>>> Tried to turn the crank bolt, no go. Split it back apart, it turns. >>>

Sorry Mark. Are you absolutely sure the crank bolt turned ***before*** you tried the starter? The reason I ask is that, at this point, I guess I'd also be a bit paranoid that something got jambed up really tight in there when the two halves were bolted together earlier.

Jack E/NJ

markdtn · 11-15-2016, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Mark>>>It will turn. The starter Bendix seemed to hit the gear OK, but I have not tried it with a battery yet. >>>Maybe I am just paranoid now.>>>hit the starter, it won't turn. Took the starter off>>> Tried to turn the crank bolt, no go. Split it back apart, it turns. >>>

Sorry Mark. Are you absolutely sure the crank bolt turned ***before*** you tried the starter? The reason I ask is that, at this point, I guess I'd also be a bit paranoid that something got jambed up really tight in there when the two halves were bolted together earlier.

Jack E/NJ

It turns now with a prybar across the crank pins. It was wrong one. Too thick and blind holes. The interference can't be much. It went together with no bolts pulling it in. Just used welding vise grips on each side for gentle pressure and when it splined it went all the way easy.

Now I find out my guy doesn't have any of the 8BA 10" flywheels. He has plenty of the early. He is going to ask around. Now I wait.

Jack E/NJ · 11-15-2016, 01:11 PM

Hope he quickly finds your flywheel. As an aside, instead of vice-grips, it might be easier to line the halves up and draw them together by using long pieces of 3/8"-16 threaded rod starters between the two. Then use nuts to evenly draw the two halves close enough together to start threading the regular bolts into the block. Jack E/NJ

PS: Now that you have it split apart again, and your paranoia seems to be well justified, you might wanna consider safety wire even though Loctite should be acceptable --- just in case it actually isn't. And Bob C's pin retainers even though you "don't see the dowels coming out" --- just in case they actually do.

markdtn · 11-15-2016, 01:42 PM

OK, so I found an 8BA 10" clutch flywheel, but it has the B&B style pressure plate (which I got with the flywheel). Looks just like post #9 http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...7925&showall=1

Off to the clutch shop after work, hopefully he can make it all work out. Fingers crossed.

V8COOPMAN · 11-15-2016, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdtn

He told me this flywheel would work for an 8BA. This guy is a flathead guru.

Mark.......So much for those "self-proclaimed GURU"s. I'm sorry to hear that you were put through this stupid BS because of someone else's inept expertise. Sounds like you're finally on the way to success, though. Good luck, and let us know the results. DD

rotorwrench · 11-15-2016, 02:22 PM

Borg & Beck would be a Mercury car flywheel. You can still drill it or you can use a 1949 thru early 51 B&B clutch if you can find one. I have to send mine to Ft Wayne Clutch due to no new ones in production. If they can drill it for the Long type, you will be back in business.

11-11-2016, 12:01 PM	#21
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue To make a long story short: -took clutch kit back to Oreilleys -went downtown to clutch shop and traded my old clutch and PP for a rebuilt one for (1/3) less than the parts store one. Lesson learned, buy local. -found out flywheel was un-usable, it had a bad hole and can't be helicoiled (too close to edge) AND you cant reverse the starter ring AND his suppliers don't even list one for 49-53. -Off to the machine shop that does flatheads. He didn't have a flywheel for a 11" clutch. Bought a used flywheel for a 10" clutch. -Back to clutch shop. Traded in 11" disc and PP for a 10" version and had the new flywheel faced. -Took the rest of the day off and am going to put it all together with correct fasteners. Thank you all for your advice and suggestions.

11-12-2016, 09:08 AM	#23
1935coupe Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: maryland Posts: 46	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Not trying to go too far off subject but the blocking the clutch issue made me want to touch on the subject a little. I see some grease in the bell of the trans, this is what causes problems with the clutch sticking, the thick trans oil leaks into the bell area and creates a sticky mess on the clutch then if you let the tractor set the clutch sticks. While you have it split, If you haven't already, clean the grease and replace that input seal.

11-14-2016, 01:10 PM	#25
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I see the difference in thickness, however that is not the real story on starter depth. To see that it would really have to sit on a pad so you had the same depth to the rear crankshaft face. I don't know what to do. I don't want to tear it down for nothing. It will turn. The starter Bendix seemed to hit the gear OK, but I have not tried it with a battery yet. There was clearance between the flywheel and block. But this is the thing that has me wondering. It was close, really close. I don't remember the other one being that close, but maybe it was. Is there any good way to tell which style it is without taking it back out? If it spins freely and the starter works what else could go wrong? Maybe I am just paranoid now.

11-14-2016, 01:18 PM	#26
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,431	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) You an tell by looking through the starter port with the starter removed. The rings are very different in the distance from the ID to the OD as you can tell in the photo. You can also see the difference in ring location. 8BA flywheels have clutch cover bolt bores that extend all the way through the wheel where the early types don't. The starter ring distance IS the big difference. If it starts normally then it is likely OK.

11-14-2016, 02:23 PM	#27
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue This is the only photo I took. You can't tell much. I'm hoping it is OK. I will know in a few hours.

11-14-2016, 03:05 PM	#28
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,113	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Hey Mark........Maybe this pic will help you determine which wheel you have. These are the two different ring gears. The LATE gear (8BA-type) is the narrow gear on the right. And, as I said up above, the 8BA wheel has the threaded clutch holes drilled completely through the flywheel....NOT blind holes. Wishing you luck! DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

11-14-2016, 03:30 PM	#29
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue When Mark finally pulls the trigger, what's the worse that can happen if it's the earlier setup? Jack E/NJ

11-14-2016, 03:36 PM	#30
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue I see you still don't have the dowel pin retainer under the bolts. Bob

11-14-2016, 03:55 PM	#33
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Mine originally didn't have the pin retainers either, only the safety wire. Same on a SBC. Jack E/NJ

11-15-2016, 08:55 AM	#34
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Of course I had the wrong one. Got it all together and hit the starter, it won't turn. Took the starter off to look at the ring gear teeth, pulled starter apart too far and had to redo the brushes. Tried to turn the crank bolt, no go. Split it back apart, it turns. Pulled flywheel, it has blind holes and is thick-early version. Back to the shop to exchange flywheel for an 8BA version and then downtown to have it faced. I hope......

11-15-2016, 09:45 AM	#35
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Mark>>>It will turn. The starter Bendix seemed to hit the gear OK, but I have not tried it with a battery yet. >>>Maybe I am just paranoid now.>>>hit the starter, it won't turn. Took the starter off>>> Tried to turn the crank bolt, no go. Split it back apart, it turns. >>> Sorry Mark. Are you absolutely sure the crank bolt turned *before* you tried the starter? The reason I ask is that, at this point, I guess I'd also be a bit paranoid that something got jambed up really tight in there when the two halves were bolted together earlier. Jack E/NJ

11-15-2016, 01:11 PM	#37
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Hope he quickly finds your flywheel. As an aside, instead of vice-grips, it might be easier to line the halves up and draw them together by using long pieces of 3/8"-16 threaded rod starters between the two. Then use nuts to evenly draw the two halves close enough together to start threading the regular bolts into the block. Jack E/NJ PS: Now that you have it split apart again, and your paranoia seems to be well justified, you might wanna consider safety wire even though Loctite should be acceptable --- just in case it actually isn't. And Bob C's pin retainers even though you "don't see the dowels coming out" --- just in case they actually do.

11-15-2016, 01:42 PM	#38
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue OK, so I found an 8BA 10" clutch flywheel, but it has the B&B style pressure plate (which I got with the flywheel). Looks just like post #9 http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...7925&showall=1 Off to the clutch shop after work, hopefully he can make it all work out. Fingers crossed.

11-15-2016, 02:22 PM	#40
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,431	Re: 8BA Tractor Clutch Issue Borg & Beck would be a Mercury car flywheel. You can still drill it or you can use a 1949 thru early 51 B&B clutch if you can find one. I have to send mine to Ft Wayne Clutch due to no new ones in production. If they can drill it for the Long type, you will be back in business.