The Ford Barn

Bobs29ModelA · 10-05-2012, 07:39 PM

I have a 1929 Model A Sport Coupe with the standard flathead 4-cylinder engine; however, when the engine was rebuilt by a previous owner, they replaced the standard head with a "C" head, apparently to raise the compression slightly. This "C"-head is equipped with a 3-hole-mount water pump, and the water pump used is different than what the stock cylinder head would have. The water pump used appears to be of the 3-hole type used beginning in 1932, on the "Model B" engines.

This water pump has started to leak out of the packing nut area, yet tightening the nut only seems to make the leak worse. I therefore wanted to replace the entire pump with one of the new "leakless" ones.

In looking at the MAC's online catalog, they have a pump offered for 1932-1934 Model B's, which at least appears to be what I want. However, I need to be sure before I order one. Their part number is "B-8501-LL", and is described as a "Waterpump - Leakless Design - Ford Model B".

Does anyone have any advice as to whether this pump will indeed easily fit the "C"-head? Or, is there another online source that makes a pump specifically designed for the "C"-head?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Dan Partain · 10-05-2012, 07:49 PM

Call or email James Rupert, he's very knowledgable. I have two of his leakless A pumps.
http://www.leaklessapumps.com/

redmodelt · 10-05-2012, 09:22 PM

The C casting mark head will use the Model B pump.
Before you order a new pump, if yours is other wise good shape, why not try replacing the packing first.

Mike V. Florida · 10-05-2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

Does anyone have any advice as to whether this pump will indeed easily fit the "C"-head? Or, is there another online source that makes a pump specifically designed for the "C"-head?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Yes it will fit fine!

Charlie Stephens · 10-05-2012, 10:55 PM

You need the 1932 water pump. The 1933-34 pump was shorter and will not work.

Charlie Stephens

columbiA · 10-05-2012, 11:11 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

All the rebuild parts for the "B" pump are the same as the "A"pump except for the larger "B" impeller.The "B" impeller can be used with the "A" rebuild kit and it would be wise to drill the impeller & shaft for a 3/32" roll pin.

midgetracer · 10-05-2012, 11:39 PM

I bought one of the B leakless pump from Macs. They are made in Belgium. It is surely not leakless. Mine drips antifreeze constantly. They tell you to grease it if it leaks. It only helps for a day or so. I would not recommend this pump. I may take it apart this winter and put in a Model A leakless seal. Wait... maybe you would like to buy it from me... I couldn't do that to you.

Bobs29ModelA · 10-10-2012, 12:49 AM

My thanks to all who responded and offered their opinions! I will continue to do my research, to find the best way to resolve my minor-leakage problem...

CarlG · 10-10-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Partain

Call or email James Rupert, he's very knowledgable. I have two of his leakless A pumps.
http://www.leaklessapumps.com/

This is what I have, works like a charm!

Ice man · 10-10-2012, 04:19 PM

Check with H&H. I have a B engine with A Lion Speed Head, (4Bolt) They sold me a 32 V8 pump and an adaptor. The pump has no fan attachment and I have run it in Florida and now in St.Thomas. NO leaks, as it has a regular modern seal and she has never ran hot. I do however have a great Walker rad (pressurized) and even with an electric fan installed (Just in case) it has never been used. Iceman

Bobs29ModelA · 10-13-2012, 01:54 AM

UPDATE:

I received the new "leakless" water pump from Mike's A-Fordable Parts today (which turned-out to be one with a MAC'S label on it), and everything was cool until I removed the old one. Seems that the new pump has about 1/8" of the stainless shaft sticking out of the back end, past the pinned "collar", whereas the old pump had nothing sticking out past the collar.

The problem is that, just inside the water jacket opening (where the pump attaches with 3 bolts) is some sort of vertical casting, with a circular opening also cast into it. It appears that it was perhaps intended at one time to offer some kind of rear support to the pump shaft... yet, the pump that came out of there doesn't quite reach it (since no shaft protrudes past the collar)... yet, the new pump's shaft and collar will hit this casting upon insertion, and therefore prevents my fully seating the new pump against the opening, even with the thin paper gasket. I only need about another 1/8" depth (if even that) to properly seat the pump against the head opening.

My first thought was to get in there with a hacksaw blade and just cut-away this unneeded casting, since it doesn't appear to have served any useful purpose with the last pump. With it out of the way, inserting the new pump would then be no problem. However, then I started wondering if removing it would somehow weaken the head in that area.

Any ideas?

juke joint johnny · 10-13-2012, 05:13 AM

I don't think I would cut into that head !
It sounds to me from what Midget racer says above that the Mac's part is of poor Quality .
I would be tempted to rebuild your old one with a Stainless shaft rebuild kit from Brattons.
I have not had a problem with the original setup if you use Quaility parts .
You have to shorten the model A shaft to fit , and be carefull taking the B impeller off as I don't think you can buy that part.

John Cochran

Kurt in NJ · 10-13-2012, 09:10 AM

The head you have is proper, the improvement in the thrust in the head(over the "A") is so the waterpump impeller hits the thrust not the shaft --it is not for shaft support, just thrust, the proper pump will have less than 1/16 of the shaft sticking out

Without knowing the exact construction of the pump -(this is the problem with "leakless" pumps, all are made different)--on a stock pump there is a thrust washer between the pump housing and the impeller that can get out of position and prevent the impeller from being close enough the the housing causing your problem

Bobs29ModelA · 10-13-2012, 09:47 AM

Thanks for your input. In comparing the rear of the shaft on the two pumps, I think that one would only need to cutoff about 1/16" to 1/8" of the collar and shaft on the new pump, to make it an exact fit and look just like the take-out unit. However, if the shaft is truly stainless steel, it might be difficult to cut with a standard hacksaw and grinder, which is really all I have immediately available to me here at home. I may need to take it to a machine shop to have this done.

I'll try to post a couple of pictures of the ends of each of the pumps, in a little while.

Bobs29ModelA · 10-13-2012, 11:00 AM

Here are side-by-side pictures of the old and new water pumps... plus a photo of the "C"-head opening, showing the vertical casting that the new water pump hits when placing it into the opening. You can clearly see the difference between the rear shaft and collar, hence, the clearance problem that is created...

Purdy Swoft · 10-13-2012, 11:02 AM

There are different grades of hardness with stainless steel... The stainless water pump shafts that I have worked with are soft and cut like butter. A good bench grinder would probably do the job. Its not rocket science... I build my own pumps and shorten a new model A shaft for use in the B pump.

I would listen to what midget racer said in post number seven. I would then send it back for a refund. If you start altering the part, they probably won't take it back. It has been said that it is foreign made and NOT a real leakless pump.

When greasing the rear bushing on original type pumps, back the packing nut off the rear bushing, pump in the grease untill is just begins to come out around the shaft, then retighten the packing nut just enough to stop the leak and NO more until next time.

Bobs29ModelA · 10-14-2012, 01:05 AM

I was able to successfully remove about 3/8" of material at the rear end of the pump shaft, and could then easily install the pump into the head without any clearance problems. I haven't had a chance yet to refill the cooling system and run the engine to test it, but I'll probably be doing that in the next day or so. Oh, and the old pump that I'd removed appeared to actually be a more modern replacement pump, rather than an original pump, based on my observation that it had sealed bearings on it, like the new one does. I'm not sure where they'd obtained it years ago, but I think they got lucky at that time in finding one that didn't have any fitment issues... unlike this time around.

Bobs29ModelA · 10-27-2012, 03:06 AM

As had been mentioned by other writers, my new so-called "Leakless Pump" started leaking on its first engine run after installation! The instructions that came with it said that, if it does leak from the packing-nut area, try pumping some grease into the grease-fitting, as that usually stops any such leaking.

Ironically, and in order to appear period-correct, this new pump also comes equipped with the 80-year-old style of grease fitting, which of course doesn't even begin to fit my modern Zerk grease gun.

So, I took my antique palm-sized Alemite grease gun, which was semi-permanently installed in my "period tools" display case (for car shows)... and I tried using it to grease the old-style fitting.

It worked like a charm, and there's been no leakage since using the old tool, just like Henry specified so many years ago!

10-05-2012, 07:39 PM	#1
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? I have a 1929 Model A Sport Coupe with the standard flathead 4-cylinder engine; however, when the engine was rebuilt by a previous owner, they replaced the standard head with a "C" head, apparently to raise the compression slightly. This "C"-head is equipped with a 3-hole-mount water pump, and the water pump used is different than what the stock cylinder head would have. The water pump used appears to be of the 3-hole type used beginning in 1932, on the "Model B" engines. This water pump has started to leak out of the packing nut area, yet tightening the nut only seems to make the leak worse. I therefore wanted to replace the entire pump with one of the new "leakless" ones. In looking at the MAC's online catalog, they have a pump offered for 1932-1934 Model B's, which at least appears to be what I want. However, I need to be sure before I order one. Their part number is "B-8501-LL", and is described as a "Waterpump - Leakless Design - Ford Model B". Does anyone have any advice as to whether this pump will indeed easily fit the "C"-head? Or, is there another online source that makes a pump specifically designed for the "C"-head? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

10-05-2012, 07:49 PM	#2
Dan Partain Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hangtown, CA Posts: 556	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? Call or email James Rupert, he's very knowledgable. I have two of his leakless A pumps. http://www.leaklessapumps.com/

10-05-2012, 09:22 PM	#3
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? The C casting mark head will use the Model B pump. Before you order a new pump, if yours is other wise good shape, why not try replacing the packing first.

10-05-2012, 10:55 PM	#5
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,032	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? You need the 1932 water pump. The 1933-34 pump was shorter and will not work. Charlie Stephens

10-05-2012, 11:11 PM	#6
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) All the rebuild parts for the "B" pump are the same as the "A"pump except for the larger "B" impeller.The "B" impeller can be used with the "A" rebuild kit and it would be wise to drill the impeller & shaft for a 3/32" roll pin.

10-05-2012, 11:39 PM	#7
midgetracer Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bismarck ND Posts: 1,189	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? I bought one of the B leakless pump from Macs. They are made in Belgium. It is surely not leakless. Mine drips antifreeze constantly. They tell you to grease it if it leaks. It only helps for a day or so. I would not recommend this pump. I may take it apart this winter and put in a Model A leakless seal. Wait... maybe you would like to buy it from me... I couldn't do that to you.

10-10-2012, 12:49 AM	#8
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? My thanks to all who responded and offered their opinions! I will continue to do my research, to find the best way to resolve my minor-leakage problem...

10-10-2012, 04:19 PM	#10
Ice man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Southern Pines, N.Carolina Posts: 210	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? Check with H&H. I have a B engine with A Lion Speed Head, (4Bolt) They sold me a 32 V8 pump and an adaptor. The pump has no fan attachment and I have run it in Florida and now in St.Thomas. NO leaks, as it has a regular modern seal and she has never ran hot. I do however have a great Walker rad (pressurized) and even with an electric fan installed (Just in case) it has never been used. Iceman

10-13-2012, 01:54 AM	#11
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? UPDATE: I received the new "leakless" water pump from Mike's A-Fordable Parts today (which turned-out to be one with a MAC'S label on it), and everything was cool until I removed the old one. Seems that the new pump has about 1/8" of the stainless shaft sticking out of the back end, past the pinned "collar", whereas the old pump had nothing sticking out past the collar. The problem is that, just inside the water jacket opening (where the pump attaches with 3 bolts) is some sort of vertical casting, with a circular opening also cast into it. It appears that it was perhaps intended at one time to offer some kind of rear support to the pump shaft... yet, the pump that came out of there doesn't quite reach it (since no shaft protrudes past the collar)... yet, the new pump's shaft and collar will hit this casting upon insertion, and therefore prevents my fully seating the new pump against the opening, even with the thin paper gasket. I only need about another 1/8" depth (if even that) to properly seat the pump against the head opening. My first thought was to get in there with a hacksaw blade and just cut-away this unneeded casting, since it doesn't appear to have served any useful purpose with the last pump. With it out of the way, inserting the new pump would then be no problem. However, then I started wondering if removing it would somehow weaken the head in that area. Any ideas?

10-13-2012, 05:13 AM	#12
juke joint johnny Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London England Posts: 908	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? I don't think I would cut into that head ! It sounds to me from what Midget racer says above that the Mac's part is of poor Quality . I would be tempted to rebuild your old one with a Stainless shaft rebuild kit from Brattons. I have not had a problem with the original setup if you use Quaility parts . You have to shorten the model A shaft to fit , and be carefull taking the B impeller off as I don't think you can buy that part. John Cochran

10-13-2012, 09:10 AM	#13
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? The head you have is proper, the improvement in the thrust in the head(over the "A") is so the waterpump impeller hits the thrust not the shaft --it is not for shaft support, just thrust, the proper pump will have less than 1/16 of the shaft sticking out Without knowing the exact construction of the pump -(this is the problem with "leakless" pumps, all are made different)--on a stock pump there is a thrust washer between the pump housing and the impeller that can get out of position and prevent the impeller from being close enough the the housing causing your problem

10-13-2012, 09:47 AM	#14
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? Thanks for your input. In comparing the rear of the shaft on the two pumps, I think that one would only need to cutoff about 1/16" to 1/8" of the collar and shaft on the new pump, to make it an exact fit and look just like the take-out unit. However, if the shaft is truly stainless steel, it might be difficult to cut with a standard hacksaw and grinder, which is really all I have immediately available to me here at home. I may need to take it to a machine shop to have this done. I'll try to post a couple of pictures of the ends of each of the pumps, in a little while.

10-13-2012, 11:02 AM	#16
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? There are different grades of hardness with stainless steel... The stainless water pump shafts that I have worked with are soft and cut like butter. A good bench grinder would probably do the job. Its not rocket science... I build my own pumps and shorten a new model A shaft for use in the B pump. I would listen to what midget racer said in post number seven. I would then send it back for a refund. If you start altering the part, they probably won't take it back. It has been said that it is foreign made and NOT a real leakless pump. When greasing the rear bushing on original type pumps, back the packing nut off the rear bushing, pump in the grease untill is just begins to come out around the shaft, then retighten the packing nut just enough to stop the leak and NO more until next time. Last edited by Purdy Swoft; 10-13-2012 at 12:36 PM.

10-14-2012, 01:05 AM	#17
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? I was able to successfully remove about 3/8" of material at the rear end of the pump shaft, and could then easily install the pump into the head without any clearance problems. I haven't had a chance yet to refill the cooling system and run the engine to test it, but I'll probably be doing that in the next day or so. Oh, and the old pump that I'd removed appeared to actually be a more modern replacement pump, rather than an original pump, based on my observation that it had sealed bearings on it, like the new one does. I'm not sure where they'd obtained it years ago, but I think they got lucky at that time in finding one that didn't have any fitment issues... unlike this time around.

10-27-2012, 03:06 AM	#18
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: Replacement Water Pump Compatibility? As had been mentioned by other writers, my new so-called "Leakless Pump" started leaking on its first engine run after installation! The instructions that came with it said that, if it does leak from the packing-nut area, try pumping some grease into the grease-fitting, as that usually stops any such leaking. Ironically, and in order to appear period-correct, this new pump also comes equipped with the 80-year-old style of grease fitting, which of course doesn't even begin to fit my modern Zerk grease gun. So, I took my antique palm-sized Alemite grease gun, which was semi-permanently installed in my "period tools" display case (for car shows)... and I tried using it to grease the old-style fitting. It worked like a charm, and there's been no leakage since using the old tool, just like Henry specified so many years ago!