The Ford Barn

Bobs29ModelA · 09-01-2011, 03:41 AM

My "new" '31 Ford Model A was running fine in front of my house today, when all of a sudden, it simply died. When I went to start it again, I got nothing from the starter button. And, it has stayed that way!

I'd just installed a new 6-volt battery earlier this week (this car is all stock!) and it was running fine all week. Now, you get nothing when pushing on the start button, no cranking, nothing. All connections have been checked and appear to be OK, as before.

After pushing it into the garage and letting it sit for a few hours, I went back out to work on it and discovered that the ignition coil was EXTREMELY HOT to the touch! I immediately disconnected the battery and it took about a half-hour to cool down.

Now, if the coil had failed and developed a dead short inside, I could see how that would have stopped the engine from running like it did (and maybe making it get pistol-hot). But, the sudden no-crank situation at the same time? I'm thinking of replacing the coil, only because of the white-hot issue I later discovered, to eliminate that as part of the problem.

I'm at a loss on this one... can anybody help?

2manycars · 09-01-2011, 06:40 AM

When you installed the battery, did you attach the ground cable to positive + terminal of the battery? If not, you may have caused the problem.

Will N · 09-01-2011, 07:40 AM

If the coil was still hot after letting it sit in the garage for a few hours, this tells me that there was current getting to the coil still. Did you leave the ignition turned on after it stalled? If you're sure you turned it off, then there may be a problem with the ignition switch. Either way, replacing the coil now after it got so hot is probably a good idea. As to why no cranking, start with the basics. Check the voltage at the battery, check that the battery cables are clean and intact and the the connections are tight. Make sure there's no fraying of the insulation, particularly around where the cable goes by the pedals toward the starter switch.

Bobs29ModelA · 09-01-2011, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, the ground cable is going from the positive post of the battery directly to a clean connection on the chassis about a foot away. Voltage is fine at the battery, connections are spotless and tight.

In double-checking the ignition switch, it was turned to "Off" and pushed-in, which I'm told is the proper way to completely shut it all down.

We did trace-out the wiring and it is secure; the insulation on this car is in excellent condition, considering it had a frame-off restoration many years ago.

The only thing I DID notice was that, with the old (aka: "hot") coil still in-place, current is obviously flowing because you can make a small spark at the battery if you disconnect the positive-to-chassis cable and lightly touch it on or off the battery post. Needless to say, I've left that battery cable disconnected overnight, for now, with the intention of replacing the 6-volt coil today...

Tom Wesenberg · 09-01-2011, 09:28 AM

Start by putting a 3 to 6 amp charger on the battery to bring it back to full charge. Then start by trouble shooting. Disconnect the coil wire that goes to the switch and see if you still have current flowing through the coil. If not, then look at the switch for a problem. If your original popout still has the original wire inside the cable, that could be shorting to ground, but with the key off, the connection should be open from the coil right at the switch. Remember the points are grounded in the OFF position on the original popout switches, so if you check the popout wire for a short to ground, make sure the key is on and the points are open, then the brass contact and ground should show no continutity. If you have a repro switch, I've seen them touch the gas tank and keep the coil energized, even with the switch turned off.

kelley's restoration · 09-01-2011, 09:48 AM

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no answer on the coil, but your starter bendix could be stuck
tk

Purdy Swoft · 09-01-2011, 10:19 AM

I thought about the stuck starter bendix also. The coil is suppose to be hot all the time but not hot to the touch unless the points are closed and the switch is on. It sounds like the problem is a short in the pop out switch.

700rpm · 09-01-2011, 11:48 AM

When you discovered it wouldn't turnover, did you check to see if the lights and/or dash light worked? Any spark at the points? Did the rest of the electrical system seem to be OK? Any negative reading at the ammeter? Try removing your ignition cable from the distributor and rubbing the distributor end on a head nut with the switch off. If you get a spark you know there is a problem in the switch.

mantta · 09-01-2011, 12:49 PM

My guess is your ignition switch. The coil should not stay hot with the ignition switch turned off. The switch should be off when it is turned to the off position and pops out.

Charlie Stephens · 09-01-2011, 01:15 PM

Can you turn it over with a hand crank? If you don't have a hand crank can you push it a little in gear to see if the engine turns?

Charlie Stephens

MCHinson · 09-01-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mantta

My guess is your ignition switch. The coil should not stay hot with the ignition switch turned off. The switch should be off when it is turned to the off position and pops out.

I think you meant to say the ignition is turned off when it is pushed in. Turning the key to the on position causes the switch to pop out to the "on" position.

In is locked and off. Out is on.

Bobs29ModelA · 09-04-2011, 10:40 PM

I've pulled the starter out and hooked it up directly to the car's battery with jumper cables; the starter does nothing. I then hooked it up to a 25-amp (but 12 volts DC) power supply, and the starter would turn maybe a 1/4-turn and then stop, each time you applied power to it.

To answer some of your questions, you could still turn on the lights and honk the horn; however, the car is currently parked in the garage so I have not tried to push it down the road to try to bump-start it.

In any event, I'm now waiting for a rebuilt 6-volt starter to arrive, to see if that helps, but as many of you suggested, there could also be a problem with the ignition switch not truly breaking the circuit even though it was fully popped "in" and locked.

I was looking at Mac's and other sites for a complete ignition switch like the original one but wasn't convinced I had found the proper part yet... does anybody have a link to the proper ignition switch for replacement? Thanks!

Bobs29ModelA · 09-07-2011, 12:47 AM

FYI, I decided to purchase one of those kits that converts the ignition system to a no-point system, for better reliability moving forward. The kit also includes a new ignition switch, which will at least remove any question as to the possible malfunctioning of the old/original pop-out switch. We'll see how it does once I get it all installed...

Tom Wesenberg · 09-07-2011, 01:24 AM

The starter draws 100 amps, so it takes a good battery and heavy duty jumper cables to bench test it. I use regular 6 volt battery cables to bench test starters.

The starter switch is a simple part and I've seen some good repro switches from the parts vendors that I wouldn't be afraid to use.

J Franklin · 09-07-2011, 01:27 AM

Are you sure your conversions will provide better reliability? I'm sure there are a few here that would like your original pop-out if it is an original.

Bobs29ModelA · 09-08-2011, 03:15 AM

FYI, I removed the old stock ignition system today, and replaced it with a "Transpark Universal" pointless ignition system. The kit also included a new ignition switch and a 6-volt coil. Ironically, once I had it all installed, I was able to crank the engine once again (whereas before, I had burned-out the coil and rendered the starter inoperative). So, it seems that the original ignition switch had indeed gone bad on me...

1931 flamingo · 09-08-2011, 07:01 PM

I don't believe a burned out coil would have rendered the starter inop. JMO
Paul in CT

Bob C · 09-08-2011, 08:50 PM

The ignition switch has nothing to do with the starter.

Bobs29ModelA · 09-09-2011, 01:50 AM

Is that why you can crank the starter, even though the ignition switch is turned-off? And, why the lights and horn work without the ignition key turned to "On"?

Tom Wesenberg · 09-09-2011, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobs31ModelA

Is that why you can crank the starter, even though the ignition switch is turned-off? And, why the lights and horn work without the ignition key turned to "On"?

Yes, the key switch ONLY connects the ground side of the coil to the points.

The starter switch, lights, horn, and ignition coil all have the power wire running dirrectly to them, and as soon as each has it's respective switch turn on that item works . The starter switch passes the power from the battery cable "hot" side, and switch for each of the rest of the items connect the ground side.

Mike V. Florida · 09-09-2011, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobs31ModelA

FYI, I removed the old stock ignition system today, and replaced it with a "Transpark Universal" pointless ignition system. The kit also included a new ignition switch and a 6-volt coil. Ironically, once I had it all installed, I was able to crank the engine once again (whereas before, I had burned-out the coil and rendered the starter inoperative). So, it seems that the original ignition switch had indeed gone bad on me...

If it were me I would have gotten the car running with a stock set up and then decided to go to some other kind of set up. If it runs with the stock stuff you know all the mechanical parts are in good order. I feel you have just added another unknown to the mix.

darrylkmc · 09-09-2011, 02:34 AM

Yes you are correct, as long as the wiring is stock, the key only operates the ignition. You can see the draw on the ammeter when the points are closed.
This way your brake light, head and parking lights and horn operate without the key in the On position.
The starter is connected directly to the battery via the starter switch.
I would put original parts back on until everything works as it should, then you can change out parts one at a time if you want to modify things. Otherwise it make it very difficult to diagnose exactly what the problem is.

09-01-2011, 03:41 AM	#1
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	From running to not running, and no crank? My "new" '31 Ford Model A was running fine in front of my house today, when all of a sudden, it simply died. When I went to start it again, I got nothing from the starter button. And, it has stayed that way! I'd just installed a new 6-volt battery earlier this week (this car is all stock!) and it was running fine all week. Now, you get nothing when pushing on the start button, no cranking, nothing. All connections have been checked and appear to be OK, as before. After pushing it into the garage and letting it sit for a few hours, I went back out to work on it and discovered that the ignition coil was EXTREMELY HOT to the touch! I immediately disconnected the battery and it took about a half-hour to cool down. Now, if the coil had failed and developed a dead short inside, I could see how that would have stopped the engine from running like it did (and maybe making it get pistol-hot). But, the sudden no-crank situation at the same time? I'm thinking of replacing the coil, only because of the white-hot issue I later discovered, to eliminate that as part of the problem. I'm at a loss on this one... can anybody help?

09-01-2011, 06:40 AM	#2
2manycars Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern CT Posts: 2,732	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? When you installed the battery, did you attach the ground cable to positive + terminal of the battery? If not, you may have caused the problem.

09-01-2011, 07:40 AM	#3
Will N Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,100	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? If the coil was still hot after letting it sit in the garage for a few hours, this tells me that there was current getting to the coil still. Did you leave the ignition turned on after it stalled? If you're sure you turned it off, then there may be a problem with the ignition switch. Either way, replacing the coil now after it got so hot is probably a good idea. As to why no cranking, start with the basics. Check the voltage at the battery, check that the battery cables are clean and intact and the the connections are tight. Make sure there's no fraying of the insulation, particularly around where the cable goes by the pedals toward the starter switch.

09-01-2011, 09:04 AM	#4
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, the ground cable is going from the positive post of the battery directly to a clean connection on the chassis about a foot away. Voltage is fine at the battery, connections are spotless and tight. In double-checking the ignition switch, it was turned to "Off" and pushed-in, which I'm told is the proper way to completely shut it all down. We did trace-out the wiring and it is secure; the insulation on this car is in excellent condition, considering it had a frame-off restoration many years ago. The only thing I DID notice was that, with the old (aka: "hot") coil still in-place, current is obviously flowing because you can make a small spark at the battery if you disconnect the positive-to-chassis cable and lightly touch it on or off the battery post. Needless to say, I've left that battery cable disconnected overnight, for now, with the intention of replacing the 6-volt coil today...

09-01-2011, 09:28 AM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Start by putting a 3 to 6 amp charger on the battery to bring it back to full charge. Then start by trouble shooting. Disconnect the coil wire that goes to the switch and see if you still have current flowing through the coil. If not, then look at the switch for a problem. If your original popout still has the original wire inside the cable, that could be shorting to ground, but with the key off, the connection should be open from the coil right at the switch. Remember the points are grounded in the OFF position on the original popout switches, so if you check the popout wire for a short to ground, make sure the key is on and the points are open, then the brass contact and ground should show no continutity. If you have a repro switch, I've seen them touch the gas tank and keep the coil energized, even with the switch turned off.

09-01-2011, 09:48 AM	#6
kelley's restoration Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 60046 Posts: 888	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) no answer on the coil, but your starter bendix could be stuck tk __________________ anyone need some Model A restoration work done in Illinois? shoot me an email for pics and information [email protected]

09-01-2011, 10:19 AM	#7
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? I thought about the stuck starter bendix also. The coil is suppose to be hot all the time but not hot to the touch unless the points are closed and the switch is on. It sounds like the problem is a short in the pop out switch.

09-01-2011, 11:48 AM	#8
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 5,906	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? When you discovered it wouldn't turnover, did you check to see if the lights and/or dash light worked? Any spark at the points? Did the rest of the electrical system seem to be OK? Any negative reading at the ammeter? Try removing your ignition cable from the distributor and rubbing the distributor end on a head nut with the switch off. If you get a spark you know there is a problem in the switch.

09-01-2011, 12:49 PM	#9
mantta Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Keweenaw Bay, MI (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) Posts: 218	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? My guess is your ignition switch. The coil should not stay hot with the ignition switch turned off. The switch should be off when it is turned to the off position and pops out.

09-01-2011, 01:15 PM	#10
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,032	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Can you turn it over with a hand crank? If you don't have a hand crank can you push it a little in gear to see if the engine turns? Charlie Stephens

09-04-2011, 10:40 PM	#12
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? I've pulled the starter out and hooked it up directly to the car's battery with jumper cables; the starter does nothing. I then hooked it up to a 25-amp (but 12 volts DC) power supply, and the starter would turn maybe a 1/4-turn and then stop, each time you applied power to it. To answer some of your questions, you could still turn on the lights and honk the horn; however, the car is currently parked in the garage so I have not tried to push it down the road to try to bump-start it. In any event, I'm now waiting for a rebuilt 6-volt starter to arrive, to see if that helps, but as many of you suggested, there could also be a problem with the ignition switch not truly breaking the circuit even though it was fully popped "in" and locked. I was looking at Mac's and other sites for a complete ignition switch like the original one but wasn't convinced I had found the proper part yet... does anybody have a link to the proper ignition switch for replacement? Thanks!

09-07-2011, 12:47 AM	#13
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? FYI, I decided to purchase one of those kits that converts the ignition system to a no-point system, for better reliability moving forward. The kit also includes a new ignition switch, which will at least remove any question as to the possible malfunctioning of the old/original pop-out switch. We'll see how it does once I get it all installed...

09-07-2011, 01:24 AM	#14
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? The starter draws 100 amps, so it takes a good battery and heavy duty jumper cables to bench test it. I use regular 6 volt battery cables to bench test starters. The starter switch is a simple part and I've seen some good repro switches from the parts vendors that I wouldn't be afraid to use.

09-07-2011, 01:27 AM	#15
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,963	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Are you sure your conversions will provide better reliability? I'm sure there are a few here that would like your original pop-out if it is an original.

09-08-2011, 03:15 AM	#16
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? FYI, I removed the old stock ignition system today, and replaced it with a "Transpark Universal" pointless ignition system. The kit also included a new ignition switch and a 6-volt coil. Ironically, once I had it all installed, I was able to crank the engine once again (whereas before, I had burned-out the coil and rendered the starter inoperative). So, it seems that the original ignition switch had indeed gone bad on me...

09-08-2011, 07:01 PM	#17
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? I don't believe a burned out coil would have rendered the starter inop. JMO Paul in CT

09-08-2011, 08:50 PM	#18
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,753	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? The ignition switch has nothing to do with the starter.

09-09-2011, 01:50 AM	#19
Bobs29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 124	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Is that why you can crank the starter, even though the ignition switch is turned-off? And, why the lights and horn work without the ignition key turned to "On"?

09-09-2011, 02:34 AM	#22
darrylkmc Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 767	Re: From running to not running, and no crank? Yes you are correct, as long as the wiring is stock, the key only operates the ignition. You can see the draw on the ammeter when the points are closed. This way your brake light, head and parking lights and horn operate without the key in the On position. The starter is connected directly to the battery via the starter switch. I would put original parts back on until everything works as it should, then you can change out parts one at a time if you want to modify things. Otherwise it make it very difficult to diagnose exactly what the problem is.