Weird electrical problem?

[Bobs29ModelA]

The other day, I was able to crank my stock '29 Model A, but it wouldn't start, and I eventually ran the battery down to the point of the cranking being very sluggish. This was unusual, as it's electical system is fully stock (6-volt positive ground), with the exception of having a 6-volt Alternator in it.. and it's never given me any problems. It appeared to be getting fuel OK, but was symptomatic of no spark being present. After putting the battery on the charger for a couple of hours, the car cranked and started without any problems.

Today (a few days later), I went to see how the car/battery was doing, and it cranked and started up again just fine.

However, I've now noticed a couple of new, weird symptoms... first, unless the car is actually running, you cannot get ANY of the lights or the horn to work with just the ignition key on... not even the small dash light! No cowl lights, no horn, no headlights, no tail-lights, no nothing. However, the car WILL still crank just fine (as if it has a fully-charged battery) and, once the engine is running, the lights pop-on after a second or two.

As a side note, I also noticed that the reading on the ammeter remains at zero, no matter what you do. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the problem; however, I removed the ammeter, just to take it out of the equation (in case it was causing a short somewhere) but the no-light symptoms remained unchanged.

If anybody has run into this weird situation, your thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[Joe K]

Ignition Key on ONLY energizes the engine firing circuits. Everything else should work identically with ignition ON or OFF - or engine running or stopped.

I would check your connection between the generator all the way back to the battery ground.

Joe K

[Fred K-OR]

Do you have a generator problem??? Or cutout problem???

[Tom Endy]

I suspect your battery is not seeing a good solid ground. Take the battery ground cable off and clean the attachment boss on the frame and clean the cable as well.

Tom Endy

[bambooboy]

bob needs some more help,maybe tom w. will be along soon. also he said he is running an alternator. tom in Joppa md

[Bob C]

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Do you have any fuses in the electrical system??

Bob

[zzlegend]

Have to agree with Tom Endy.

[Willie Krash]

If the car is cranking over I'd guess the ground is good. Check and see if your alternator's batt term. is live. Use a voltmeter and a light. The engine does not need to be running. Are there three wires on the alt batt term?

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I suspect your battery is not seeing a good solid ground. Take the battery ground cable off and clean the attachment boss on the frame and clean the cable as well.

Tom Endy

I concur, poor grounds on any system do weird things. Like others have asked do you have the common add a fuse that bolts to the starter? They have been known to vibrate the rivets loose causing issues.

Do the following with the battery cables off the battery:

Id check all the connections (there arent too many) and just have a looksie and lightly attempt to tighten then especially the ones on the back of the ammeter since they all run thru it. If you see rust/corrosion/or alot of paint clean any iffy ones up and reconnect. id start at the starter stud since you say you ALWAYS have power to the starter when you try but no power to anything else. (all tied from that point - go until you don't have power, my guess would be behind the instrument panel is your culprit)

If you have a repo ammeter they are known to be of iffy quality on the insides so while the nuts may be tight on the backside the studs may not be tight on the inside causing a poor connection/open connection.

In the meantime Id keep the battery cable off the battery or keep the disconnect off just in case something decides to ground out and start a fire.

[Mike V. Florida]

Let's take a look at the diagram the Willie posted. In place of the cut out and generator there is an alt. It is from this point, the alt connection, that the lights and horn get it power from the direction of the battery until the alt is running then from the alt when the engine is running. The starting and the ign come from the battery and does not need the alt.

Your symptoms are that the starting and engine will run, see the yellow wire on the drawing from the starter. The lights and horn only work when the alt is working, see the yellow wires on drawing from the cutout.

My guess is that your battery is not charging as well. I would check the "black/yellow" wire and the terminal on both sides to see if there is a good connection as this wire is the one that "joins" the battery and alt.

[quickchange]

Just had samr problem on custmers car that had all worked but during lhd to rhd etc found no power at light switch , lights , horn etc , but would turn over ok, problem was amp meter stuffed , plus dash wiring suspect , new bits all fixed , T box & ampmeter , KEEP your NUTS tight, Thats my take on it,

[Bobs29ModelA]

Me again; thanks for all the input.

I should have mentioned that I checked the battery posts for any corrosion (nothing wrong there; still clean and shiny), and water levels in the three cells were fine... as well as I removed the dash panel and checked for any abrasions on the back of anything that might have rubbed a short onto the gas tank, and everything looked good. I also checked the connections on output lug on the back of the alternator (all wires clean and solid), so nothing obvious there. And, yes, I do have that aftermarket fuse holder and fuse mounted on the starter, and all of that was still clean and tight, and the fuse was good.

As mentioned earlier, I also removed the repop ammeter just for fun (had voltage across the two ammeter wires), so even though the ammeter may no longer be reading (as in, gone bad), removing it from the equation did nothing to solve the problem.

The one other thing I did notice today is that my charger (6 volts, 6 amps) used to read at a particular charging rate (shown as a percentage on the charger's gauge), which is then supposed to work it's way up to finally show a 100% charge (which it used to do in the past). Curiously, it now only levels-off at the 50% charge level, and stays at that level, no matter how long you keep it on the charger.

Because of this, my first thought was that the battery is going bad (almost 3 years old now), because it doesn't seem to want to recharge fully... but, if that is the case, why would it crank so perfectly, yet not run any of the accessories with the engine off? This all seems backwards to me...

[Wooden wheel]

Hi there Bob, I had similar probs with the same set up on our 30 phaeton and found the wires in the fuse link at the starter ie the main supply to all the electrics had a poor connection so cleaned up the fuse and soldered the wire joints and all is well.
Hope this is of some help. Happy motoring

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've seen glass fuses look good, but have a bad connection just inside the metal cap. You can use your short clip lead (everyone should have a couple) to bypass the fuse by clipping on the starter switch stud and to the yellow wire going up to the terminal box. See if this makes a difference.

If the car has been parked for some time during humid weather, the points may be oxidized.

Once the car is running take a voltage reading at the alternator post, each terminal box post, the starter switch, and finally at the battery post. Let us know what the readings are.

[P.S.]

The smoking gun in this is that the lights don't work unless the motor is running and therefore, the alternator. Another clue is no charging indication with the motor running, and he had to use an external charger to charge the battery.

Using an ohm meter, check for continuity between the lug on the back of the alternator and the battery post. My guess is there is a problem between the alternator and battery.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Thanks; I will continue to look into this when I have more time available, and will update once I have something to report.

(BTW, points are not a consideration in this equation, as my car has an FS Zipper electronic distributor installed).

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Friend, Chuck, had a BAD connection at the junction box, even though the nuts were VERY tight & NO visable signs of corrosion! He added star washers & tightened them well & problem was fixed!
Bill W.

[dlfrisch]

Your ampere meter is part of the complete electrical wire loop from the charging unit to the battery. It has no ohm resistance. Take one wire off of the amp meter and check for continuity across the unit. Should have no resistance.
Dave

[heneste]

Have you checked the water levels in the battery in case the electrolyte levels have gotten too low and the battery may not hold a charge for an extended period?
Maybe the load of the lights is too high unless there's current being assisted by the alternator.

If the battery is going south, you don't want to overwork your alternator.

[Tom Wesenberg]

A poor connection means high resistence, which leads to heat. You can make a quick check by touching each connection to see if it's hot.

Alternator output stud
2 terminal box studs
2 fuse ends
starter switch stud
battery posts
Ground connection for battery cable

[jerry tocci]

Do you have an after market harnness or horn /switch rod ?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by dlfrisch

Your ampere meter is part of the complete electrical wire loop from the charging unit to the battery. It has no ohm resistance. Take one wire off of the amp meter and check for continuity across the unit. Should have no resistance.
Dave

RIGHT ON, Dlfrisch, those slotted nuts that hold the posts in the ammeter are often overlooked! Tom W. made a nifty tool to tighten them. Some ammeters can be taken apart, & you can study the innards. It's FUN to take the "mystery" out of them, & oil the needle shaft, that sometimes sticks.
Bill W.

[MrTube]

I may have missed someone else asking this question and if I I'm sorry but, when you removed the ammeter from the circuit I assume you connected the two wires together?

I don't know how your car is wired, on a stock model A having that open wouldn't let the car run but it would crank. The wires must be shorted together as the ammeter is in series with the circuit. If they are just hanging there not connected you disconnected power from everything on the other side of the meter.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Hmmm, that's an interesting point, as I thought the ammeter was simply in parallel across that circuit, to monitor it... so my expectation would have been that to remove it from the picture would not have any effect on it. I guess I need to take another look at the Model A wiring diagram, when I get a chance.

And, to answer Mr. Tube's question, no, I did not connect the two wires together; I simply disconnected both wires from the ammeter, to totally remove it from the equation. (I did, however, put a VOM across the two wires (when the ammeter was still removed) and read close to 6-volts DC between them)...

[Mike V. Florida]

When during all this did you disconnect the ammeter, before you posted your question?

Please hook it back up or at least connect the two wires together.

Then would you please look at the drawing that Willie posted with the wiring diagram and you will see how it fits into the whole cars electrical system.

I'm sorry if this is going to confuse you but there was a wiring change in 1929. Before that coil did not read on the ammeter.

Unless your car is for show, and you have a slant pole coil please use Willies drawing and wire the ammeter the way it shows on the drawing. Having the coil read on the ammeter will help future trouble shooting of the ignition system as you will see the opening and closing of the points when starting the car is all is good.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97192

[Bobs29ModelA]

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All this was done before I started the post. Also, as mentioned earlier, my car has a Zipper FS Electronic Distributor system in it, so if I remember correctly, there were a couple of minor changes made in the way the wiring goes to/through the junction box, so its possible that the changes mentioned by Willie may not apply to my situation, because of this difference in wiring needed by the Zipper. I've been driving it in its current Zipper configuration for 3 years now without any problem, so this is all surprising to me. In any event, the ammeter IS hooked back up, since removing it from the picture a few days ago made no difference in the symptoms.

I am out-of-town at the moment, but am planning to spend some time on the car this coming week when I get back home, and I will re-trace all of the wiring from battery to starter to junction box, just to see if there's anything obvious. I will also remove the ammeter and connect its two wires to each other, to see if there is any change in the symptoms as presented.

My continued thanks to all for sharing their thoughts and input!

[Bobs29ModelA]

Well, I finally got to do some more research into my problem here, and ended-up getting it resolved!

While all connections between the battery, alternator and junction box were clean and tight, I started to think about the concept of having a high-resistance connection somewhere, especially since the lights only worked with the engine running. I then decided to take a look at the lighting switch (at the bottom of the steering column), since my steering box tends to slowly leak gear oil down into the switch unit. So, I removed the bale and pulled the switch out and opened it up. While it didn't seem flooded with oil, there was a bit of oily film inside, so I first wiped it all down and then sprayed it completely dry using a can of Contact Cleaner. I put it all back, but the lights and horn system continued to remain dead (unless the engine was running).

I then tried wiggling the wiring harness where it comes off of the BACK of the lighting switch, and suddenly the cowl lights came on (with the engine OFF). This was definitely progress! So, I proceeded to remove all of the wires one-by-one from the back of the lighting switch, and sprayed all of the spade-lug contacts with contact cleaner, to insure that no oily film was hindering good, clean contact where the wires meet the back of the switch.

Upon further testing, everything was once again back to normal... with all the lights, the horn, and even the ammeter reading properly! So, the problem appears to have been been a dirty/oily connection in the back of the headlight switch... and I now know what to look for if it ever happens again!

In closing, I hope my findings will be of use to anyone else who might run into the same symptoms... and I do thank all of those who shared their input into my situation!

[P.S.]

Thank YOU for following up!! Now we all can learn from your excellent sleuth work.

[Bob C]

Shouldn't the wires be soldered to the lugs??

Bob

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Shouldn't the wires be soldered to the lugs??

Bob

None of mine are soldered.

[Y-Blockhead]

Bob, As I mentioned in another thread I always apply di-electric grease http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/prod....aspx?id=02085 to electrical connections and light sockets to seal out contaminants and moisture.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

Well, I finally got to do some more research into my problem here, and ended-up getting it resolved!

While all connections between the battery, alternator and junction box were clean and tight, I started to think about the concept of having a high-resistance connection somewhere, especially since the lights only worked with the engine running. I then decided to take a look at the lighting switch (at the bottom of the steering column), since my steering box tends to slowly leak gear oil down into the switch unit. So, I removed the bale and pulled the switch out and opened it up. While it didn't seem flooded with oil, there was a bit of oily film inside, so I first wiped it all down and then sprayed it completely dry using a can of Contact Cleaner. I put it all back, but the lights and horn system continued to remain dead (unless the engine was running).

I then tried wiggling the wiring harness where it comes off of the BACK of the lighting switch, and suddenly the cowl lights came on (with the engine OFF). This was definitely progress! So, I proceeded to remove all of the wires one-by-one from the back of the lighting switch, and sprayed all of the spade-lug contacts with contact cleaner, to insure that no oily film was hindering good, clean contact where the wires meet the back of the switch.

Upon further testing, everything was once again back to normal... with all the lights, the horn, and even the ammeter reading properly! So, the problem appears to have been been a dirty/oily connection in the back of the headlight switch... and I now know what to look for if it ever happens again!

In closing, I hope my findings will be of use to anyone else who might run into the same symptoms... and I do thank all of those who shared their input into my situation!

This is from Bratton's catalog:
1930-31 one bulb: For horn headlights and tail light. Use one bulb set if you have cowl lights. This harness is made from the Ford print and includes the correct wire bullet ends for the wire to the headlights for a perfect fit. Best wiring available. Correct color coded wire. Wire ends are soldered to terminal disc. Yellow wire and blue wire with yellow tracer go to horn. Yellow wire inside loom to cut out. This can be used on 1928 cars if (# 16690) is replaced with a repro light switch body. The 1929 wires have the stop light wires NOT braided inside a loom, but two separate green wires.

I looked at an old Ford loom I have and the wires are soldered to the
terminals on the disc.

Bob

[Badaboom]

Thanks for sharing your solution! I have the same issues with lights and horn only working when engine is running so as soon as I have some time I will check the lighting switch!
(I will disconnect the battery this time, as last time I disconnected the light switch I blew all light bulbs...)

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Badaboom

Thanks for sharing your solution! I have the same issues with lights and horn only working when engine is running so as soon as I have some time I will check the lighting switch!
(I will disconnect the battery this time, as last time I disconnected the light switch I blew all light bulbs...)

How did you disconnect the light switch in such a way that it blew the bulbs?
If you disconnect the battery from an unregulated generator, then the voltage will shoot up and blow the bulbs.

Are you using a master disconnect switch? Are you using a fuse?

[Badaboom]

Tom,

I don't have a fuse and no master disconnect either (both are on the to do list, but I only got the car recently). So the system was under power when I disconnected the lightswitch (by accident). All bulbs except one signal light were blown...

[Tom Wesenberg]

I don't use a fuse nor master disconnect switch, but only asked to see if they were opened with the engine running, which might have cause the high voltage spike that blew the bulbs. By disconnecting the lights, did you mean you unscrewed the power feed wire at the cutout?

[Badaboom]

...but only asked to see if they were opened with the engine running, which might have cause the high voltage spike that blew the bulbs.

Ok, now I understand what you mean. But if that were to happen the engine would stop running as well because there would be nog ignition right? I don't recall this happening.

With disconnecting the light switch I mean the switch on the bottom of the steering column. I accidentaly removed the bracket when working on the carburator and the switch fell off. After putting it back all bulbs were blown.
I understand your reluctance to this (probably) being the cause as a "shorting" during (dis)connecting of the switch would turn on the lights and not blow them but nothing else happened (as far as I know) between the time the lights were working and the time they weren't.

[Bobs29ModelA]

I think that the suggestions for (a) soldering all connections into the light switch, and (b) using dielectric grease on all contact points, are both the way to go, to either mitigate or eliminate any future problems... although I'm sure that having a steering box that doesn't leak gear oil into the light switch would also prove very helpful, too!

[Brentwood Bob]

Suggest you check the contact point where the ground cable is bolted to the cross frame behind the battery. you need a clean, bright metal to metal contact and I have added a stainless steel star lock washer for added insurance. With the modified ignition and the alternator add an auxillary ground cable from the same anchor point behind the battery routed over to the transmission tower. The alternator does not work well if there is a loose electrical connection, especially a bad ground.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

I think that the suggestions for (a) soldering all connections into the light switch, and (b) using dielectric grease on all contact points, are both the way to go, to either mitigate or eliminate any future problems... although I'm sure that having a steering box that doesn't leak gear oil into the light switch would also prove very helpful, too!

Bob, I have some friends that think a "little" oil leak helps keep the headlight switch contacts from wearing, prevents corrosion, & makes the switch operate smoothly??? Some others think 3 drops of oil will destroy their switch??? Mine works perfectly, so, I'm NOT even going to look inside it!
Bill W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Bob, I have some friends that think a "little" oil leak helps keep the headlight switch contacts from wearing, prevents corrosion, & makes the switch operate smoothly??? Some others think 3 drops of oil will destroy their switch??? Mine works perfectly, so, I'm NOT even going to look inside it!
Bill W.

Some oil won't hurt and will help to keep away corrosion, as long as dirt doesn't mix with it. The dried oil/dirt will prevent good contact, but I haven't seen that as a problem on a Model A that gets driven.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Another update: Since I did the cleaning of the light switch a few weeks ago, the lights and horn have all continued to work flawlessly.

(To Brentwood Bob: My battery connection at the frame is just as you described... clean, bright, solid, and with a star lockwasher installed).

[CooperClaude]

i, too , had numerous electrical problems and a fire that burned all electric wiring except for headlights and taillights which weren't hooked up . Got with Mike's in Ga and replaced the following, distributor with modern upper plate. Terminal box with new wiring for dash . Ammeter with plastic cover nuts on back. Sanded down dash cavity and masked, then 4 successive coats of liquid rubber. Found generator was still working but not starter . Auto Zone will test them for free. Bought new battery from Tractor Supply along with new cables. Thing on top of generator (works like a regulator ) was replaced by an "electronic" one . Bought 6 volt positive ground alternator just in case. Replaced coil .Added fuse AND cut off switch . After all this it cranked once and refused subsequent tries. On a hunch I removed ground wire from factory location to bolt on top of transmission. Works ! These things are simple autos that most can work on with a few tools. The Devil is in the details. Always. Previously chattering/sticking clutch solved by driving about 50 miles .

[Bob Bidonde]

My Coupe has a 12-volt system with an alternator. The alternator does not always self-start, so the lights are dim and horn motor barely turns. However, the battery does not go dead in my car.

As for the dead battery, I suspect that the diode trio in your alternator is allowing a small battery current back-flow through it.

If you race the engine, the alternator should self-energize and start charging. Take your Model A to a local competent shop and have your alternator checked.

[1931 flamingo]

I had trouble last week and missed a show. When I got it home had about 6V on the batt but wouldn't turn it over. Charged the batt and OK but not charging. It's an alt but hasn't shown charge in quite a while. Pulled the alt and took it to a shop in E Hartford, CT (Bernie's on main st). He said it was gummed up inside (probably been on there since late 80's/early 90's) Took a cut on the rotor and new brgs. Now I show charge when started and settles down like it should in about 10 min. Tweaked the points and adj'd carb. Hasn't run this good in 3 years.

Paul in CT

[Bobs29ModelA]

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That's one thing that continues to amaze me... I have a 6-volt wet-cell battery in my car that is about 4 years old now... I try to drive the car every few weeks, especially during the slow (as in, no car show) season. Yet, this battery refuses to die, nor to even temporarily run down.

I'd like to replace it someday with an Optima gel-mat battery... but the way this thing keeps on going, it may be a few more years before I can justify doing so!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

I'd like to replace it someday with an Optima gel-mat battery... but the way this thing keeps on going, it may be a few more years before I can justify doing so!

do a search on those batteries. It seems that they are not as good as they once were.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

That's one thing that continues to amaze me... I have a 6-volt wet-cell battery in my car that is about 4 years old now... I try to drive the car every few weeks, especially during the slow (as in, no car show) season. Yet, this battery refuses to die, nor to even temporarily run down.

I'd like to replace it someday with an Optima gel-mat battery... but the way this thing keeps on going, it may be a few more years before I can justify doing so!

So, you are having real good luck with the much less expensive lead/acid battery...............then why do you want it to die, so you can buy the other battery? As Mike said, they are no longer what they once were.

I get over 10 years out of my 6 volt common lead/acid batteries.

[Bobs29ModelA]

I guess I should have worded it a little differently... and just said that, when its standard wet-acid battery DOES decide to die, I intend to replace it with an Optima gel-mat battery... as I've had really good luck with those Optimas in my modern iron!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Bobs29ModelA, after rereading the first post and then later learning you have electronic ignition, your problem of nothing working except the engine could start and run, had to be the terminal box connection or the ammeter connections. or a small chance the power wire from the ignition switch, The switch was rewired to now supply power, rather than complete the ground circuit for the coil.

I have a feeling when you removed and reinstalled the wires on the rear of the ammeter you fixed the problem. Were the ammeter nuts tight and clean?

[Bobs29ModelA]

Hi Tom,

Well, the one undeniable thing about these aftermarket/replacement ammeters is that they're all of cheap quality, so my removing and then reconnecting the wires on the back of it could have somehow fixed a bad internal connection inside the ammeter... although the terminals on the back of the ammeter were indeed spotlessly clean as well. I did realize after the fact, however, that that ammeter had not been indicating ANY kind of reading for months before the "no lights" condition first presented itself... and I just didn't notice (or even care about it)... at least until my lights and horn stopped working months later.

Perhaps it was a combination of two things going on, but there is no doubt that degreasing the contacts of the lighting switch (below the steering gear) was a large factor in resolving my problem.